Large Scale Central

Gimmie a Brake!

In another topic, the discussion turned towards how to deal with cars rolling down grade, and the topic of working brakes came up. This is something I’ve been toying with, though not with respect to parking cars on sloped sidings. In my case, I’m trying to do pretty much what the prototype does when pulling a train down a long grade–keep the train from bunching up and pushing against the locomotive. The problem–surging downhill, an unfortunate property of many worm gear drives when the grades are steep enough.

My dad’s Woodland Railway has a long stretch (100’ - 150’) of track with much of that being on a 5% grade. It’s definitely “helper district” for anything longer than 6 cars going up the hill. Coming down the hill, one would think there wouldn’t be any issue, but we’ve got a number of locos which surge something fierce on the steep parts of the grade. (Oddly, the threshold seems to be right about 4% for problems to crop up. There are many stretches of 4% grade on the line and the locos seem to run smoothly through those.) Anyway, if the train pushes against the loco as it’s running downgrade, it surges. If the loco is running light or its rear coupler is in tension such that the train is slowing the locomotive down, the surging goes away.

So, the question is, how do you build working brakes on the train so that you can successfully stretch the train against the locomotive so the couplers are always in tension while going down the grade? Since all trains on the Woodland Railway must have cabooses, the logical thought was to somehow create drag on the caboose so that it stretches the train. Some means of working brakes would hopefully do what we need it to do.

This is very much a work in progress. What follows is an early attempt at working brakes that works in some ways, but has some definite weaknesses.

This is what I’ve currently got in place. One end of the string is tied to the truck bolster. It’s then wrapped a few times around each axle, then passes up through the end platform to a brake lever:

This lever is currently on/off. There’s not enough wiggle room for “just a little” or “a little more” braking. Here, the string is being pulled, and the lever is in the “on” position. With the string in tension, it pulls on the string wrapped around the axles, creating drag and slowing the caboose.

Here it is in the “off” position; the string is relaxed and not creating any drag on the axles.

It works, but it’s not there yet. With the brake applied on a 6-car train, it creates enough drag to retain about half the train, so that the weight of only three cars pushes against the locomotive. That does seem to mitigate the surging, but I know it can be improved upon. A few issues:

  1. Because the string is wrapped around the axle, it creates more drag when the wheels rotate one direction vs. the other, causing the wheels to more readily lock up. Sliding wheels do create drag, but not as much as gently retained wheels, and without causing flat spots.

  2. The string has a tendency to bunch up, which also creates more drag and may lock the wheels.

  3. As currently implemented, the string leaves the end axle and goes up through the platform. This tends to restrict the rotation of the truck. On broad curves, this isn’t as much of an issue as it may be on tighter curves, but it may be better to run the string back towards the center of the truck so it can rotate more freely.

My thoughts at this point; I’d like to experiment with something other than string. I’m thinking a strip of fabric maybe 1/2" wide or something, wrapped in a “U” around one or both axles. My thought is this; tie one end of the “U” to the bolster, and the other end to a string which would go to the brake lever. You could have the ends of both strips of fabric tied together so that both are pulled tight by the lever. This would be towards the middle of the truck, so that would get rid of any issues with restricting the rotation of the truck. Also, because it’s a “U” shape, not wrapped multiple times around the axle, it would eliminate the bunching and uni-directional issues I’m having with the string. One could also experiment with different materials to see if they had any difference on resistance. My biggest concern is how to rig it so it applies the same braking pressure to each axle, but I’m also thinking it may be self-equalizing.

Has anyone else played with working brakes on their cars (electrical pick-ups don’t count; they can’t be applied and released. :wink: ) There’s part of me that also wonders if it could be as simple as building working prototypical brake rigging with beams, shoes, and levers. Has anyone else tried that? Success? Failure? Seems plausible (it works on the prototype), but does it translate to the model?

Later,

K

Very nice idea Kevin.

Imagine what you could do with a servo controlling the braking. :wink:

Thanks for the great write up on your device Kevin. This is something I think has very real merit and I’m absolutely going to play with when the time comes.

One thing sticks out to me with respect to the wheels locking up. An actual working brake where the shoe was on the wheel would probably lock up sooner since it would have more leverage than applying the baking via the small diameter axle. Another variable that I think seriously influences the success of the mechanism is the weight of the car. If you were to adjust your current assembly until the wheels lock, maybe put a shim in between your lever and screw to temporarily pull it tighter, then sit some extra weight on the car, I imagine given enough weight the wheels would then over come the locking.

Great idea, I’m sure the collective can hone it in to a very well functioning device. I look forward to seeing what other ideas come out of this.

I have been searching for a little while this morning for a reasonable pic of what might be a suitable looking fitting on a caboose for operating a brake.

A clever guy - not me, but there are many here I know - may be able to trig up a mechanism, similar to the copper lighting strip that ifs found on Bachmann J&S cars. I have a grade on which I stable four cars. Ideally they need a brake rather than the small spike in the ballast to stop them tolling away. (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-surprised.gif)I chose this as it is a Stateside company. I believe 0 gauge would work if larger scale is not easy to fit.

http://humpyard.com/

(http://humpyard.com/lever1_small.JPG)

How about a fat rubber band? Even loose that would probably create some drag. Though I don’t know how long it would last. They dry out pretty quick.

Kevin,

I have similar plan to create a brake caboose, so I like what you’re doing… One avenue I’m exploring is the use of low-cost oscilating steam cylinders. To control the braking all you would need to do is place a throttle on either the intake or exhaust. Compression would result in engine braking. If it works, i suspect it would also sound kinda neat.

Now this isn’t completely an original idea, as it had been tested on the Mt. Washington Cog RR on one of their coaches. Its inconclusive as to why the idea was scrapped in favor of continued use of friction brakes.

Interesting concept, Kevin. May I suggest a fatter axle ? I have no clue wether or not it will help, but it just popped into my mind, and there’s alot of density it has to penetrate to get there LOL.

I like Alans idea of using a lever attached to a strip of brass or plastic etc… I see a thicker axle maybe a drum on the axle, the brass bar would be attached to the front of the caboose and the other end attached to the lever so when the lever is flipped it would tighten up the brass stripe on the drum. Release the lever and the brass or plastic strip would go back to normal and release its tension on the drum.

Years ago in GR Mag. Jeff Young the steam guy talked about building a momentum car. I don’t know the issue.

Todd Haskins said:

Years ago in GR Mag. Jeff Young the steam guy talked about building a momentum car. I don’t know the issue.

Slightly off-topic, I suspect, but the ‘momentum car’ is intended to make your live steam loco run prototypically - it simulates a load of 100 cars (approx) so making the engine “chuff” loadly, use lots of steam, and accelerate/decelerate slowly. Useful also when running on hills - the momentum pushes the loco up the hill and prevents it running away down-hill. I’ve a photo of David Bailey’s momentum car somewhere.

OK, you want automatic braking only when going downhill. It seems to me that if you can restrict just the last car, all cars between that and the engine go taut.

I would use a tilt switch to detect downhill motion. I would have the switch activate a solonoid that can apply pressure to the string, rub the axle, or whatever.

I was thinking, instead of a tilt switch, maybe a pendulum mounted inside the car. So on level or uphill track it doesn’t pull whatever brake lever tight, but going downhill it does. The more downhill the more it pulls. The pendulum could move a bell-crank so small movements of the pendulum can have larger movements of the brake lever.

Just a thought.

Pete Thornton said:

Todd Haskins said:

Years ago in GR Mag. Jeff Young the steam guy talked about building a momentum car. I don’t know the issue.

Slightly off-topic, I suspect, but the ‘momentum car’ is intended to make your live steam loco run prototypically - it simulates a load of 100 cars (approx) so making the engine “chuff” loadly, use lots of steam, and accelerate/decelerate slowly. Useful also when running on hills - the momentum pushes the loco up the hill and prevents it running away down-hill. I’ve a photo of David Bailey’s momentum car somewhere.

I thought Kevins problem was the steep grades going down hill so that is what made me think of the momentum car which in his case would be a caboose on the back of the train.

This is a neat problem and the lever is a good way to control it but I really like the pendulum idea.

I’d like to see where this project goes and see someone build it.

Why do it mechanically? How about adjusting a couple of magnets to create drag – one on the axle, the other somewhere near the bolster. BUT make the bolster magnet an operating electromagnet, like they used to have on the backs of old electro-magnetic speakers (yeah, I know… WAY back).

You could trigger it remotely, or if you wanted to activate it automatically when going downhill… -

You know, I don’t know if they still have these in auto shops, but you USED to be able to buy a small battery-powered lamp to stick on the bottom of your trunk lid. When you popped the trunk, it would swing up and activate a mercury switch which would turn on the lamp. I’m not sure if they make them anymore because a) the market is shrinking, and b) they’ve gotten a LOT more finicky about mercury.

So the basic idea would be, find one of those switches, mount it at the proper angle in your caboose so that it activates when going downhill, and turns on the electromagnet, which attracts the permanent magnet on the axle enough to create some, but probably not a lot, of drag.

Interesting thoughts so far! Lots to think about. With regard to pendulum or mercury/motion switches, how sensitive are these? A 5% grade is just under a 3-degree incline. On one hand, that doesn’t strike me as much leeway with regard to something like a mercury switch, but it’s also been a long, long time since I played with them in high school. How would the movement of the car itself (either side to side or with starting and stopping) affect its operation? By the same token, my iPhone can tell inclines within a degree, so one would think such an automatic switch could be rigged fairly easily using similar technology.

I’m personally not adverse to stopping at the top of the grade to set the brakes then releasing them at the bottom of the hill, but I can also see where automatic application would be beneficial. A servo in the caboose to apply it has merit, though would likely be best suited to track-powered DCC applications, lest you need an individual receiver in the caboose just to apply the brake.

A momentum car such as Pete describes would not do what we need it to do in this instance. Its job is to make changes in speed harder and slower to occur. If the train is accelerating, the momentum car creates drag against which the locomotive would pull. However once the train were to slow down, the momentum car would then push forward, which is where we run afoul of our goal. We want something that always keeps the couplers in tension.

The electromagnetic idea is intriguing, if for no other reason than it’s a chance to play with magnets. Are there diagrams somewhere describing how one might put something like this together?

With regard to trying thicker axles, I’ll have to play around with that. I can’t work out in my mind whether the same amount of force acting on a thicker axle would cause it to lock up sooner or later. (Oh, physics, how I miss you.) I keep going back to a small-diameter wheel being harder to stop than a large-diameter wheel, so I’d think a smaller axle would give you more room for playing with braking force before you lock the wheels. But I could also be thinking backwards because the of the difference in diameters between the wheel and axle. Something else to play with…

The really scary part is right now I’m thinking of trying to rig up a working set of brakes on a truck.

No, I’m not having fun. Not at all. This is clearly work.(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

Later,

K

This is all very inspiring. When I get to this, here is my take on how I’ll be attempting it. I’m with Kevin (and Devon in the thread this originated in) in that I think it would be really cool if it were actually brake shoes that did the breaking. The only problem with this, which I’ll propose a solution to in a minute, is that as I stated in my first post the larger diameter surface of the wheel versus axle will give the brake more mechanical advantage. Now this brings us to how we should activate the brakes. I want it to be controlled remotely. The thought of magnetics is also very appealing to me. So allow me to present exhibit A, my crude drawing of the magnetic brake beam.

First a ferrous casting or machined part would be made resembling a brake beam with shoes on the end. Next a winding of magnet wire would be placed around the beam turning the assembly into an electromagnet. The assembly would hang from its leads. The winding could be covered with a filler material to smooth it out and make it appear more like a normal wooden/metal beam. Variable voltage could be applied to give different levels of braking power depending on need of the specific train. The only problem left to solve is wheel lock. I propose adding a thin fabric or paper based liner to the shoe to provide a small gapping effect severely negating the effect of lock up. this would be similar to how that magnet really sticks to your fridge but hardly holds that one prised drawing from you grandchild that you want to display.

Call me crazy but this is how I want to attempt it.

Gary Woolard said:

Why do it mechanically? How about adjusting a couple of magnets to create drag – one on the axle, the other somewhere near the bolster. BUT make the bolster magnet an operating electromagnet, like they used to have on the backs of old electro-magnetic speakers (yeah, I know… WAY back).

You could trigger it remotely, or if you wanted to activate it automatically when going downhill… -

You know, I don’t know if they still have these in auto shops, but you USED to be able to buy a small battery-powered lamp to stick on the bottom of your trunk lid. When you popped the trunk, it would swing up and activate a mercury switch which would turn on the lamp. I’m not sure if they make them anymore because a) the market is shrinking, and b) they’ve gotten a LOT more finicky about mercury.

So the basic idea would be, find one of those switches, mount it at the proper angle in your caboose so that it activates when going downhill, and turns on the electromagnet, which attracts the permanent magnet on the axle enough to create some, but probably not a lot, of drag.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercury-Tilt-Switch-Pin-Alarm-Door-Trunk-Hood-for-Car-Auto-Motorcycle-NEW-/110782756227?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

Kevin Strong said:

I’m personally not adverse to stopping at the top of the grade to set the brakes then releasing them at the bottom of the hill

The really scary part is right now I’m thinking of trying to rig up a working set of brakes on a truck.

This is how I would approach it then. Adds to operation and keeping somewhat prototypical as well.

Don’t think there would be a need for a ratchet paw or a lock stop of sort if you put the brake wheel shaft into the chassis rather snug and used a very light return spring.

Pardon the quick drawing but I’m supposed to be fixing cars right now…don’t tell my boss …:wink:

Rooster patent #69

David Russell said:

Pardon the quick drawing but I’m supposed to be fixing cars right now…don’t tell my boss …:wink:

Rooster patent #69

Hey, I won’t hassle you for the quick drawing or tell your boss if you don’t hassle me for my quick drawing or tell my boss! (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

I like your plan too. I think one key for any system using brake shoes on the wheels is plenty of weight for traction in the car to avoid wheel lock from the added mech. advantage, and give plenty of braking power.

Could keep it simple. The 1" tube solenoid mounts between the wheels and the plunger pushes against the inside of the wheel. A mercury tilt switch, or otherwise, could activate it. (With the known hazards, mercury is getting pricy and hard to find. But voila!)

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/sol-102/miniature-12vdc-push-type-solenoid/1.html

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/ms-23/mercury-tilt-switch/1.html

Or, for non-mercury:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16882B

this general plan has merit! Some thoughts from one who has been involved in a real (toy size) railway. The WW&F railway museum has no automatic brakes and relies on hand brakes. the loco has steam or air brakes depending on steam or diesel but the cars not…yet.

The problem using just the engine brakes is that the shoes are expensive and wear out quickly if they are used alone to control train speed. so the engineer whistles for brakes…one good toot on the whistle. The brakeman in training (me) cranks on the hand brake…not too hard mind or the wheel locks. until recently the coaches with brakes ( not all yet ) had brakes only on one truck. That meant that only half the cars weight was available for braking. recent work has connected both trucks which is a good improvement. Our Jackson and Sharp coach had springs to hold the brake beam and shoes away from the wheels (until braking was needed) when built.

Oh- and we are working on automatic Vacuum brakes this fall and winter… The Brits use em and Eames in this country was developing some at the time of his death…but Westinghouse won the race! Apparently though, the British freight trains had hand brakes on each wagon; they would stop at the top of a hill, set the brakes then pull the train down the hill, stop again to release.

So how does this apply? if we could apply braking to both trucks that would help…it might also help to be able to apply the brakes from either end of the caboose or either side? Ken’s string around the axle is a reasonable approach. fewer wraps are less likely to lock the brakes. but more wraps with less pull would put less stress on the axle and bearings. One other thought is that the string might also create drag all the time just to a lesser extent.

The idea of a strap with only half a wrap per axle is good too, again the forces would be higher for the same braking ability all other factors being equal, but here is where a drum on the axle would help, lowering the forces and increasing the braking. with a prototype like brake rigging under the car both trucks could be set up with strap brakes.

One other idea for “automatic brakes” … how about a large ball ( marble or ball bearing ) in a track inside the car. the ball would roll to the low end of the track and could block a light sensor and activate the brakes. Probably could even work mechanically. the track could be sloped slightly to match your grade. such automatic brakes would also slow the train at station stops because inertia might roll the ball to the “brake” end of the track.