Large Scale Central

General Malaise in Largescale

After Andy’s and Jack’s response to Tim’s first post, I went back and re-read it several times. They read it wrong, and somehow got it reversed from what Tim said.

Tim’s post is in plain, understandable English, so it seems that Andy and Jack did not either take the time to actually read the post, or are incapable of understanding, or just have a chip on their collective shoulders.

I’ll take door three, because of the response from Andy was more emotional than anything else. There’s just a me too response from Jack, so what’s new here.

I think the manufacturers are really not on to any real marketing plan. George Adams’ post that they won’t make any new large locos because the majority of people have small curves is indicative of what I think is a problem with manufacturers:

They don’t really understand their market. In a recent conversation with Lewis, he blamed the poor sales of the Mikado and the Mallet on the fact that the locos were just too large, too big for the curves on most people’s layouts.

I strongly disagree with this position, and if you do some research, even on the Aristo site, you can see the REAL reason of poor sales of these locos.

I think there are also problems with Bachmann marketing, but it seems that the politics is even more involved, and all I can say that I did not hear clamoring for the latest 2 locos.

(Likewise the PCC trolley from Aristo).

Like TOC, I don’t mind hobbying on my locos to improve them, “But the average consumer?”…

I really feel that many manufacturers think they know everything about what the hobby wants.

I do not think they do.

Regards, Greg

Greg Elmassian said:
BIG SNIP I really feel that many manufacturers think they know everything about what the hobby wants.

I do not think they do.

Regards, Greg


Speaking of which there is a certain new R/C system due out soon that is claimed to be better than DCC.
Very cleverly it is not compatible with DCC.

It must very clever as it does not use garage door openers to make it work. :wink:

Greg-
Didn’t you know?
That is a pre-requisite for some of these folks.
Mis-understand, then run off at the mouth.

Oh, well.

Somehow, I think that there is a very important piece of information that i just don’t know.

You will.
Just wait.

Andy,
just to make it clear, I was not lampooning an ‘incorrect’ scale by saying mundane and toylike. I do not model 1/32 scale either. My reference to 1/32 scale is that those people are fanatics and will buy anything in the scale, as evidenced by the numerous items on offer, both scale and semi-scale. This is not a criticism of them either.

     I collect LGB and kitbash/freelance predominantly Bachmann 1/22.5 scale (?) products,  but will also build in wood.  Therefore,  I must be criticising myself by reference to my particular scale as toylike and mundane.  By definition something mundane is just that,  mundane,  every day stuff , relatively commonplace.  Our models are toylike whether we agree or not.  The fact that we choose to operate them in a prototypical fashion does not take away the fact that they are still toys.  Being toys does not detract from their 'play value'.  I honestly cannot understand your extremely emotional response,  as I am not challenging your position in relation to the enjoyment that you derive from your hobby.  No need to sell up all your railroad.  You enjoy your involvement in your hobby,   as do I.

Jack,
no problem.

My take on things:

I don’t put a whole lot of stock in those who say the hobby is rapidly declining. I’ve been hearing that from when I was a kid. “Enjoy it now, because when you get to be older, no one will be making trains.” Here I am, some 30 years later, and there’s more choice in all the scales than there ever has been. If the HO stuff that’s available today was around when I was in high school, I probably would not have gotten out of HO. If On30 had been around when I was in high school, I probably wouldn’t have gotten into HO. Those of us in our 30s, 40s, and 50s will keep the hobby alive for our lifetime. Whether subsequent generations pick it up, who knows, but “they” said “my” generation wouldn’t be remotely interested. I see no waning in the attraction of trains to the kids my daughter’s age. Heck, she quickly mastered the Playmobil R/C train I gave her for her 3rd birthday.

I think the lack of gangbuster support for recent releases has everything to do with a narrowing of focus. We no longer buy locomotives simply because we have to just to have something that looks like what we want. We have choices in terms of scale, era, standard or narrow gauge, etc. Aristo-Craft and USA Trains can release whatever they want, I’m not going to buy it. Nothing against the product, it’s just not eastern narrow gauge. Likewise, Bachmann can release whatever it wants, and the modern diesel guys aren’t going to touch it. The large scale pool has been divided into swimming lanes. Some don’t care where they swim, so long as they get their exercise. Others have their favorite lanes and stick to them. The maturation of the hobby has–in a way–contributed to a bit of a slowdown. I also think that we’ve become accustomed to new releases, and take them a bit more in stride than we used to. I think the excitement’s still there. It manifests itself in the occasional spirited discussion here and there. I also think there’s something to be said for the notion that wanting something is far more emotional an experience than finally having it. When we do finally get the latest and greatest, many of us sit it on the shelf before we even have time to get to it.

I also think saturation has been an issue. While it’s cool to see some of the models that are coming out, I think it’s counterproductive for three or four different manufacturers to all produce the same one. How many people have the 20’ diameter curves needed for a Big Boy to justify three versions? Are there really that few “popular” locomotives where such overlap is essential? We’ve got three Big Boys, 3 GG-1s, 2 SP Daylights… Where’s the N&W class J? Where’s the bread-and-butter 2-8-0 or 4-6-0 in either 1:32 or 1:29? It reminds me of the old baseball adage… How do you win? Hit the ball to where they ain’t (or something to that effect). You want to sell trains, sell something that’s not on the market already.

As for the future? I know the R/C crowd will probably burn radio antennas in my front yard for saying this, but I think DCC and that level of customizable control is where we are headed. My generation “gets” it. There’s barely an apparatus in our houses that doesn’t require some level of programming. Sitting down with a new locomotive and customizing the sounds, lights, and that kind of stuff is no different to us than setting the ringtone on our phone, or wallpaper/slideshow on our computer. It’s part of the fun. (Heck, even my landline has customizable ringtones, and yes, I programmed them.) I don’t see DCC and battery R/C being mutually exclusive at all. Instead, I see those two worlds becoming more and more similar to the point where I’d expect in 5 or 10 years, the major DCC players will offer battery R/C versions of their controls and vice versa.

As for the models themselves, I do think we’ll see a bit of a slowdown in terms of new releases, simply because there has to be time to sell the models between releases, and with a smaller, more focused pool of customers, it will take longer to clear the inventory. At the same time, I don’t think the consumer will really notice the slowdown because of the variety that’s already available. There’s enough inventory on the market now to keep us quite fat and happy. I think we’ll see more emphasis on small run “boutique” cars that have a very finite, but rabid market. (An example would be a B&O “wagontop” box car. One wouldn’t expect to sell thousands of them, but the B&O fans will have to have at least three or four.)

I also see the prices climbing a bit, but I don’t necessarily see this as a negative. I think high prices or limited supply forces the modeler to focus more on what they enjoy running, as opposed to buying one of everything that comes out just because they can. When I look at some of the best-themed railroads that I’ve come across, they are mostly done by people who barely have two extra pennies to rub together. Because they have to scrimp and save for everything on the railroad, they are very selective and everything fits their “vision.” That’s a philosophy I try to keep in mind every time I see a new loco hit the streets. Yeah, it’d be cool to have, but would it have run on a rural Pennsylvania narrow gauge railroad?

Later,

K

Kevin Strong said:
My take on things:

SNIP
As for the future? I know the R/C crowd will probably burn radio antennas in my front yard for saying this, but I think DCC and that level of customizable control is where we are headed. My generation “gets” it. There’s barely an apparatus in our houses that doesn’t require some level of programming. Sitting down with a new locomotive and customizing the sounds, lights, and that kind of stuff is no different to us than setting the ringtone on our phone, or wallpaper/slideshow on our computer. It’s part of the fun. (Heck, even my landline has customizable ringtones, and yes, I programmed them.) I don’t see DCC and battery R/C being mutually exclusive at all. Instead, I see those two worlds becoming more and more similar to the point where I’d expect in 5 or 10 years, the major DCC players will offer battery R/C versions of their controls and vice versa.

SNIP
Later,

K


Kevin.

I don’t disagree with any of your comments.
However, Mr Lewis Polk has quite proudly stated that his new REVOLUTION TE system will not be DCC compatible.
In fact he went so far as to say it was better than DCC without actually explaining how it was better.

What I should point out is that many in the current LS fraternity do not want to and cannot get a grasp on technology.
They like it simple and will still stay liking it simple unless the costs for the high tech stuff are reduced so much they have to change from the really simple to use stuff.
For that matter, I will continue to cater for that “older” non tech market with my modified “garage door openers” Mr Polk considers old hat.

Model trains, in all scales, have always been dominated by the “old” guys.
It is not that the younger crowd isn’t interested.
It is just that people don’t have the time, space and money to build a layout until they are more established in life, and no longer physically able to play the sports that occupies their time when they are younger.
If the hobby is dieing, it has been doing so for over 40 years.
Ralph

Jerry Barnes said:
I think it is fun to build/bash/modify or scratch build. That's where the fun in this hobby lies for me. I too am a roundy roundy guy, to each his own, I say. One saying someone gave to me was guys who practice 'checkbook railroading'. I remember listening to some guys at Martys talking about their roomful of trains that they had never gotten out of the box. I don't have much , but use what I have. Make what I want, weather the new stuff and 'just do it'.
Great post!

I made every single one of my thirty-something 1:20.3 cars, skellies and cabeese with my very own paws. I was running twelve of them last evening in the gathering dusk behind one of my two new Bachmann three-truck shays [plain DC versions, BTW]. Me an my old pal Broos sat there in the gathering gloon and had a great chuckle as we watched the little train coming around the bend [on a roundy-round, that’s all there is] and just saying ‘Wow!’ Doesn’t it look just great?’ and ‘Hey, look at the ashpan glimmer on THAT!’.

Then we got out an Aristo-craft Dash 9 with QSI sound and a dozen or so cars, and ran THAT until it got too dark and cold - making as much noise as we wanted to, blowing the horn, sounding the bell, cranking up the amps just to hear the engine note change around the bend…bliss.

We eventually went in as it hit 0C and went on down, but we were happy.

This morning has arrived, bright and around 3C, so I’m presently running my Accucraft 3-cylinder Shay, with the same logging consists as the sparkie had last night, and reading through these posts between fuel and water stops.

IMO, Jerry has it right - ‘Each to his own’, he wrote.

I just love trains from N to full-size, and everything in the middle, steam, electric, diesel, I don’t care. I’ve been very lucky, reading through the pages here, as I’ve seen little of the problems that plague many of you with Bachmann reliability issues, and taking my shays to bits to give them a proper lube job before setting them on the track, all I could do was to marvel at the way the things had been put together. Both went onto the track and ran like watches from the very first turn of the wheels.

Nothing has been totally glitch-free, I have to admit - my Accucraft Garratt needed totally new steam lines, end to end, and meshing to the burners, but THAT runs like a mad thing, as the views on YouTube will readily testify. In fact, it was MY Garratt that was the test-bed and prototype for all the improvements seen on the last batch made, so if any of you have one, you can buy me a beer next time we meet.

Remember that nobody is standing over you with a big stick, compelling you to buy this stuff.

Like every other so-called leisure-time/pastime activity, it’s as much or as little as YOU want.

tac

Andy Clarke said:
I have no problem with people who model 1/20.3, 1/22.5, 1/24, 1/29 or 1/32, because, it's a hobby, that we all share... That also goes for the Z, N, HO, ON30, O-27, or S scale, and my apologies, if I left out a scale....
Hey, you missed out about 5500 of us here in yUK who also model in 16mm.........not to mention the half a gazillion 0 scale modellers, too, and both TT fans, too. :)

tac

Greg Elmassian said:
I think the manufacturers are really not on to any real marketing plan. George Adams' post that they won't make any new large locos because the majority of people have small curves is indicative of what I think is a problem with manufacturers:

They don’t really understand their market. In a recent conversation with Lewis, he blamed the poor sales of the Mikado and the Mallet on the fact that the locos were just too large, too big for the curves on most people’s layouts.

I strongly disagree with this position, and if you do some research, even on the Aristo site, you can see the REAL reason of poor sales of these locos.
Regards, Greg


Greg my friend I suspect you’re wrong about this, though I can’t prove it. On forums like this there are people who love to build and take things apart and modify–I’m one of them, though not very skilled–and people who like to be on the cutting edge in terms of operating efficiency and potential. But how many people post here regularly? Two dozen? How many post at MLS? Maybe 100, maybe 200?

I’d like to have an aristo mallet, despite the wheel issue, but it’s too big–it looks silly on eight foot curves and I don’t have room to store the thing. The PCC car, on the other hand, is probably a smart move–not too big, prototypically ran on tight curves, and it’s perfectly situated to trigger the nostalgia of the most statistically numerous segment of the population, people in their 40s and 50s who remember when PCCs were still running.

Very well said Terry.

Terry, I didn’t miss anyone, I just didn’t mention those scales in type, because I couldn’t remember what they were called as I was typing, that’s why I had typed ““my apologies, if I left out a scale””… That comment was added, because, I knew I had missed a few ““scales””, and the last thing I wanted to do, was leave any modeler out…

To me, a model railroader is a model railroader, makes no difference how big your stuff is, or how small, whether it has a billion rivets, or one… There’s not a model railroad anywhere, that does or operates everything exactly like a prototype railroad does, we are all just displaying our interpertation of what we see, or feel how it should be displayed…

Andy Clarke said:
To me, a model railroader is a model railroader, makes no difference how big your stuff is, or how small, whether it has a billion rivets, or one... There's not a model railroad anywhere, that does or operates everything exactly like a prototype railroad does, we are all just displaying our interpertation of what we see, or feel how it should be displayed...
Now, that is quite a statement. Isn't that why we all tolerate each other, around here? It is the common interest and the willingness to learn from each other and the desire to show off our achievements to people that might be interested or understand why we do it.

And ANYONE that says Andy isn’t a modeler, just cause he uses 1:29 definately HAS NOT seen his work, or his 10 year plan (Jane’s 2.5 year plan) One look at the auto racks and 70’s era boxcars…Sheesh…

Andy Clarke said:
Terry, I didn't miss anyone, I just didn't mention those scales in type, because I couldn't remember what they were called as I was typing, that's why I had typed ""my apologies, if I left out a scale""... That comment was added, because, I knew I had missed a few ""scales"", and the last thing I wanted to do, was leave any modeler out....

To me, a model railroader is a model railroader, makes no difference how big your stuff is, or how small, whether it has a billion rivets, or one… There’s not a model railroad anywhere, that does or operates everything exactly like a prototype railroad does, we are all just displaying our interpertation of what we see, or feel how it should be displayed…


Sorry if you took offence - none was intended, but you wrote ‘If I misssed out a scale…’, and I was just reminding you what you missed out. :wink:

As for me, I just can’t get as serious as some of you guys there obviously do. I counted up my trains the other day for insurance purposes, and reckon I have about $100K worth in every scale from Z to 1/3 full-size.

None are better or any less fun than others to me, but I sure prefer 1/3 scale when I’m riding around to Z. :wink:

tac

Secretary - Ramsey Miniature Steam Railway Society [Inc. Fenland Light Railway 1991]
G1MRA #3641

TonyWalsham said:
However, Mr Lewis Polk has quite proudly stated that his new REVOLUTION TE system will not be DCC compatible. In fact he went so far as to say it was better than DCC without actually explaining how it was better.
Errr...Ok I'm a DC guy and maybe I'm missing something but didnt LGB try ramming down our throats a proprietary DCCish train control system that was incompatible with anything else on the market, that worked out well for them didnt it...

I worry about this. One thing that crossed my mind a couple years ago when Bachmann announced that they were producing a DCCish control system, was that what would happen if a major manufacturer decided to make an engine that could only be run with their proprietary control system, maybe even they would forgo-ing the option to use old time straight DC operation. Its not beyond the realm of corporate mindet possibility. We got a whiff of this planned built-in incompatablity with the “super-socket” discussion.

DCC works in the smaller scales because there are general NMRA guidleines agreed on by most all the manufactures, this does not exist in large scale as yet.

Tony said, “What I should point out is that many in the current LS fraternity do not want to and cannot get a grasp on technology.
They like it simple and will still stay liking it simple unless the costs for the high tech stuff are reduced so much they have to change from the really simple to use stuff.
For that matter, I will continue to cater for that “older” non tech market with my modified “garage door openers” Mr Polk considers old hat.”

Absolutely hitting the nail dead square!
Sorry, Kevin, I can’t keep up with technology, and now I don’t want to.

In my train room are models of 1:22.5, 1:20.3, 1:24, 1:29, 1:32, and some oddball LGB scales.
I run them all from time to time.
They are kitbashed a little, and some are fully scratched.
I just enjoy my trains.
I enjoy other guys trains as well, regardless of the scale.

Yeah , just have fun and don’t worry. If you look back, people were saying it’s an old man’s hobby 75 years ago, guess us old guys have been around a LONG time! :slight_smile: Most of us have plenty of trains now and if they all stopped making them we would have enough to last us till the end.