Large Scale Central

General decline in modelling skills

General Discussion
#1

Discussion on another forum, soon to close, has me criticised for commenting that the site was more to do with displaying one’s latest purchase rather than promoting modelling skills. The site was more pages of a model railroad manufacturer’s catalogue rather than a hobby site. This is not demeaning the site, but it seems that many attracted to the site are ‘ready to run’ modellers, as are those on the two largescale manufacturer promoted forums.

This has lead me to the conclusion that modelling skills are generally in decline. I then began wondering as to a possible cause of this. Could it be that in industry, today, there is less emphasis on manual dexterity skills in manufacturing? A machinist, at one time, was required to actually carry out machining on his mill or lathe. Today, he is required to be a computer programmer. Even the epitome of manual skill dexterity, the toolmaker, is now taken over by computer software and CNC milling. Man is relegated to minor assembly functions on the process line. Automation and robotics have eliminated man from the once highly manual skills.

Has the transition from the fountain pen to the ball point pen to the keyboard, diluted man’s ability to actually model something, due a general decline in dexterity? Why is the emphasis today on ready to run? Even the few kits made available from manufacturers are equal if not higher cost than prepainted ready to run models. Undecorated locomotives attract no reduction in retail price even though the paint masks to produce ready to run models, run in the several thousands of dollars each for each roadname. Manufacturers are even reluctant to offer undecorated models as they are not able to be readily onsold due lack of demand. Are we being seduced into accepting that ready to run is the only way to go? How will this impact on our hobby skills base?

#2

Na.

It used to be you had to be a modeler to have nice G trains. Now guys like me can have them.

Sites come and go.

#3

Tim;
It seems the whole World is changing to a “Buy Ready made pleasure” place.

Just take recreational sports. Gone are the days of a “Pick-up” ball game, or a quick game of hocky in a back yard. Gone are the days of servicing your own vehicle.

Sports seem to be so organized and costly. Every parent seems to want his children/child to become a Sports Professional. Or at least wear the overpriced junk they sell to make them look like it. Who still knows how to change a tire or do an oil change ?..let alone a light bulb, or light switch…

Hobbies are about the same. Look at these pages. Constant questions, that just a few years ago, we would have bought a Klambake book for answers.....today the average newbie, just fires up his/her 'puter and expects some other poor slob to do the research for him/her/it.
Who knows how to gauge a wheelset, these days, or even why ?.....Who hasn't got a clue when their rolling stock won't stay on the track......Who can still read a simple wiring diagram......

Out of the box; “See what I bought”, type of mentality has just about taken over most hobbies. It isn’t limited to LS, or model trains…it’s all hobbies.
The manufacturers, just follow the trends…and provide the “Toys” for the market that exists.

We here on LSC, seem to have more of the "Old Fashioned" modellers than most places, but we do have our share of the new type of hobbiest.

No-one is at fault…the World has been changing ever since it’s creation.

Ask young Dave Goodson about this topic.....he can give a 10 hour lecture on it just based on his experiences.

BTW; the Newbies, are NOT at Fault…it’s just the way they were taught…and they, just like us old Farts, are trying to learn, in a way that was not available to us, when we started.
Could your or I get an answer to a problem within minutes, without going out our door ? Could we just lay out a wad of cash or use a credit card for that railroad car we wanted ?..or order it from our armchair at home ?
Our parents had it even harder…they couldn’t even buy the things they wanted…they HAD TO BUILD THEM, because no-one made them for sale.

Tim, the talents are still there, in most people; but there is little need to develop them, when there is no motivation, or training. Schools don’t offer shop courses any more…parents don’t have hobbies, to pass on to their children, or the time to do it.
Sports, and more sports, along with Twit Vision and 'puter games keep the children out of their hair. Parents play golf, or seek solitude at the country club. If they have a back yard, they hire a Mexican to maintain it. Children aren’t expected to do any chores or develop any responsibilities…it might hurt their poor little images amungst their peer group…

I guess I've run this sermon on long enough......sorry for boring you....

Fred

#4

I guess you guys don’t pay much attention to the “Modeling Forum”…too busy lamenting and pontificating?

#5

Wattsa matta with kids today!

My modeling skills have improved enormously since I started in this hooby. They have gone from zero to “modest.” If the only way to get started in this hobby had been to model everything from scratch, I’d never have started.

You guys are nuts–there’s no general social decline in hand skills. The consumer marketplace is chock full of tools and products for people who want to mess around with their off the shelf stuff. There are large communities of “tuners” who work on modern cars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_tuning). People put gigantic sound systems in their cars, they change the dash lights, they make custom interior parts they repaint: they work at various levels from modestly tricked out to fully hot-rodded. There are whole sites–several sites–devoted to modifying the PT cruiser, or the Scion XB, into something distinct and unique.

As a musician I’m constantly amazed at how many discussion forums are devoted to building your own tube amp, or modifying existing amps. To modifying and building guitars. Do you get the grizzly industrial catalog? Remember all that stuff they offer for luthiers (guitar makers)? Take a look at these sites:

http://www.warmoth.com/
http://www.usacustomguitars.com/

They’ll sell your raw wood, or unfinished bodies and necks, or finished bodies and necks. You can enter at several levels. There are at least half a dozen companies doing the same

The big box craft stores are FULL of women (and men) buying craft and hobby supplies.

I fail to see why it’s a problem if some people want to buy stuff off the shelf and run it. Hobbies have multiple pleasures. Some people collect the stuff and never run it–good for them! Some people want to grab it off the shelf and run it for fun–good for them! Some people want to model precisely and carefully–good for them! None of these things damages the other.

Speaking for myself, I would NEVER have entered this hobby if I had to build everything from scratch. I bought off the shelf stuff, and started to modify it. I got a little bit more skilled as I went along. Now I have modest modeling skills. I like the modeling process. It’s fun. My point is having off the shelf stuff available does not necessarily prevent modeling, it might actually encourage it. Or does kitbashing not count?

Is there a decline in people’s desire to work with their hands? To the contrary–the desire is powerful and ubiquitous.

#6

I think modeling skills have declined for a couple more reasons. Some of us are blessed to have the time to spend doing things ourselves and we enjoy it. Others spend their time working and don’t have the time to model.
I also think that many don’t model because they haven’t had the privilege to work around a modeler and learn the skills. I know there’s a lot of modeling I don’t do only because I haven’t had someone to “show me the ropes.”
I would also do more modeling if I could find the “ingredients.” The internet has been a big help.
I also have found this in woodworking. Many of the wood sizes I need are not available. So I bought a planer and have a good table saw. I just make my own and enjoy it but it’s a step I wouldn’t have had to do 20 years ago.
Three cheers to the skilled model work I see on this website.

#7

Mike, I have an extensive background in the custom guitar side as well, and did build everything except the fretboards.
I wish that I had at least some of the money I had tied up in African Mahogany in my earlier projects back, but I digress:
So many people don’t have the room either outside or in their garage/workshop to stock it with common tools required to even make things themselves to start with. I am more fortunate with alot of room both inside and out, and beleive me, my kids are all well versed with a rake, shovel, branch trimmers, and wheelbarrow. That doesn’t mean they like it, but by golly, they will do it. That makes me the odd parent at the boy scout meetings my 2nd eldest attends, and the school where they go. I have only had to go to the school office one time in 8 years, and it was less than pleasant for my boys, but you know what? All of them have a work ethic now, and know that life isn’t going to give them their every whim…
On to modelling.
I am far from a skilled modeler, so use this venue as a learning tool, and read these posts, and follow a few specific gentlemen who are true craftsmen and true to their word. There is an incredible talent set here, and their willingness to share their experience is no different than studying a book, but will hold more truth. It seems the lessons learned the hard way are the ones well remembered, and a forums intent is to share knowlege is it not? This does not mean that I don’t have a growing library as well. Even the needed books can be suggested in these posts which, when viewed from a different angle is a bit ironic.
These are opinions for sure, but just like reading and learning from a book, we are all responsible for making up our own mind.

#8

Ken;
I did mention that we here on LSC, have more “Modelers” than most of the other forums…I do check out that place daily, and there are a bunch of great ones…

#9

It’s usually a hell of a lot cheaper to buy one done than build it yourself.
That’s all the way from custom cars and hot rods, down to trains.
That’s one of the reasons.
Also depends on your patience or lack of. I spent one whole winter scratch-building a seven car train. Everything from the caboose to the tender. Everything but the trucks and wheels. One of each kind of car.
By spring I was burned out on scratch-building.

Kits are another thing.
I just finished building a Hubley metal 1/20 auto. I liked it so much I bought a few more to do this winter.
I would like to take a stab at a Phil’s narrow gauge kit someday.

Us old pharts grew up building kits of planes, ships and cars. (At least I did).
At a recent train show, the middle aged and gray hairs outnumbered the youngun’s about 10 to 1.

They were prolly all at home twittering or playing video games…

#10

I think that the BIGGEST reason is that there is so many more things clamoring for our attention these days. Way back in the dark ages, IF you had free time, you could read a book, or do something with your hands. Then came radio, and you could STILL read a book, or do something with your hands. Along came television. A bit harder to divide your attention, unless there was nothing on. Then we had cable… 200 channels, and still nothing on. But now we have the net. Hard to surf and build a model. Glue on the keys isn’t a good thing.

Kids have it worse than we did in some ways, texting, playing video games, higher homework loads, and the net all mean fewer hours left for ‘other’ things.

Then there is the major cultural shift away from do-it-yourself ANYTHING. The self sufficient jack of all trades is a dinosaur. Faster and easier to pay somebody else to do whatever while you go make more money, or enjoy your day off.

And, don’t forget, even ‘back in the day’ those fancy go-carts the rich kids had always looked and ran better than the ones we cobbled together from second hand junk anyway. They were off riding so long that they got bored, while we were still trying to get that %$#& Briggs swiped from grandma’s old washing machine to start.

#11

I ran a train club for 3 years at my school. Every day the kids would ask about the train club in class. I had tons of kids signing up for the club. So many in fact that the club was split into 2 clubs. There were just too many kids for me to handle at one time. Everything was great as long as the kids could just play with the trains. When it came time to actually build something from kit, scratch or just a simple kit bash, there were no takers. Kids today have no modeling skills. Everything they are exposed to is instant gratification items. It’s not their fault though, it’s the parents fault. When mom and dad won’t or can’t do any of this stuff, the kids won’t either. Manual dexterity isn’t even a term understood by the masses these days. It took me 6 months to get the kids to put together a simple Bachmann station, 4 walls and a one piece roof. Once they got the hang of it things got better but in the end non of them could build a simple model on their own. The basic skills eluded them to no end. Things like a 90 degree corner made no sense in realistic terms. Putting two walls together to make a 90 degree corner wasn’t important. Following step by step instructions were too difficult because they were too time consuming. My son ended up fixing everything they did over the three years the club ran.

I’m glad the club was a success and the kids had the chance to get the exposure to something new but I honestly don’t think it made a difference. If anyone is interested to see what the club accomplished you can see the blog at http://scalerailsonline.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1475

Jon.

#12
Ken Brunt said:
I guess you guys don't pay much attention to the "Modeling Forum".............too busy lamenting and pontificating?
I do purchase but also build and I AM a NEWBIE with a 3yr old RR but into this scale for 8+yrs now. I love this site and don't do any other. The guys here are very inspirational and I have seen some incredible scratch modeling work from others new or old in this scale. I read your comment as well Fred and you personally have been an inspiration along with many others that allowed me to jump into scratch building. It sometimes may cost more to scratch stuff...but I look at it this way, you have something NO ONE ELSE has! I don't have a fancy education but most of my hands on skills were learned through model railroading! I used to read Model RR mags and books in H.S. detention. Imagine that... a good, honest,caring guy like me in detention! ;)
#13

Jon,
almost 50 years ago my parents gave me a Black & Decker tool kit for Christmas. It comprised a 5/16" electric drill, orbital sander and circular saw attachment. To use each tool one was required to remove the chuck from the electric drill and attach to the sander or saw. This was tedious but it did open up another world for me. The manual skills helped me through 35 years of aircraft engineering and set me up for life as a handyman.

 To market such a set these days would lead to numerous law suits against the manufacturer.  There was no warnings attached as to its usage,  but in those days awareness of one's existence was more a prerequisite than today's 'live for today' philosophy.   My son is a perfectionist military modeller,  so maybe seeing me carrying out manual tasks has inspired him,  although I have no envy for his perfectionism.

 A manual tool these days is a mobile phone, a keyboard or a joystick.
#14

MIK,
I don’t think it was a Briggs &Stratton you swiped of Granny’s washer.Maybe a Maytag like the one in my garage. We’re thinking about building a go-cart or if you want to you could borrow it!

#15

On the other it may have been a Briggs & Stratton off the snow blower. If it was he may have done a lot of shoveling that next winter!

#16

Radio Cab Command is offering kits for his R/C system.

I dips me lid to him.

He is a very brave man indeed.
Having been involved with Neil Dyson trying to market electronic kits for train people, the exercise soon came to a screaming halt when half the day was spent walking people through the procedures and the other half repairing their stuff ups.
To be fair that was 20 years ago and the relevant skills required may now be widely evident in the LS community.
Somehow I doubt it.

As to other general modeling skills. I think they are actually on the improve. Not maybe everyone, but certainly some individuals who started out tentatively and are now very skilled. One only has to look through the modeling pages on this forum for the evidence.

#17

No a decline, rather a wholesale abandonment.
Sure, there are lots of “tools”, but few who really know how to use them.
How many can still make a whistle or a pop valve with an electric drill, vise, files, and a piece of brass rod?

You don’t think it’s gone?
Athearn just announced the final killing off of the “kits”.

In the old days, we bought “0” gauge locos in 3-5 parts.
One, chassis and wheels.
Two, motor, rods and valve gear.
Three, boiler and fittings
Etc.

You filed and sanded the sand-cast bronze…then you drilled for the fitments of bits…assembled pieces of valve gear…before you put the motor and worm in, you checked for free-wheeling and binds.

Nowadays?

WAH!
My engine doesn’t run!
What shall I do?

I am not “proud” of new purchases until I have re-worked it to what I want it to be.

People have no spatial ability.
They cannot visualize, imagine…they need “software” to build a freaking railroad.

#18

I agree with Jon’s statement blaming the parents - the generation that now has grown kids with families - the boomers.

My oldest has very little in the way of mechanical ability / skill with tools. Even though I have always liked to build things and tear things apart to figure out how they work, I didn’t share that with him when he was young, and it shows. Fortunately we did encourage his musical talent.

When my youngest came along I was able to spend much more time with him. He was into tools starting with toddler tool kits and was by my side for many a project, watching everything I did and asking lots of questions. He went from building with Leggos to building styrene car kits, then R/C cars from kits. He even rebuilt some of my vintage R/C cars.

When he got older, he decided that with only a repair manual and basic tools that he was capable of replacing a head gasket on his car. When he got done, the car ran better than new. You all have seen some of the neat things he is capable of, like the snow machine last winter.

Someday, when his social schedule slows down, I expect he’ll teach himself to be a fine modeler. I’d like to think that all of this talent came to the surface because we spent time together working on various projects.

#19
Curmudgeon said:
They cannot visualize, imagine.....they need "software" to build a freaking railroad.
I look through my magic mirror every time I log in ! Software is clothing I wear to bed. ;)
#20

The one “Hobby” store I frequent for glue and other kibbles 'n bits has a HUGE selection of plastic models, wood and plastic aircraft, R/C car components, etc, etc, etc.

I don’t think all of this is for us FOGs. I’m not too worried about our youth of today loosing mechanical nor electrical skills.

Couldn’t all the plug ‘n’ play stuff be viewed as entry level into the hobby? New hobbyists often begin “modeling” by customizing their equipment and some move on to more creative work.

I saw how the amateur radio hobby in my area would get all snobby with new hams that either didn’t build their own sets or never learned Morse Code thus chasing away new blood. (Now it’s more about the internet vs. ham radio.)

Anyway, I don’t think that is what is being said here. I know my limited modeling attempts have been encouraged by many on this site.