I am a baby boomer and I am sure a lot of my generation are willing to work on something for months to build a wooden building. My large depot took almost a year to build. You can only glue so many siding strips on at one time, so if you have built a scratch built building, you know the time frame it takes. It is a lot easier for a lot of modelers to purchase an out of the box building.
I think a lot of the problem is that “large scale” mostly means “trains in a garden”, which appeals to a lot of folks who aren’t modelers. And some who are, feel that it’s a waste of time to put any effort into stuff that’s going to be outdoors – which, in many cases, is true.
There are other parameters as well though.Some are content with an oval of track, and a basic consist right out of the box going in a small 5 by 10 area, while others have their heart and souls in the hobby.I have played guitar for 30 plus years, but don’t have delusions of stardom any more than I beleive I have the talent to buid Structures from scratch with the level of detail that some have here. That doesn’t mean I have a harsh word for the guy who owns a guitar and plays it on his front porch once a month any more than I have a harsh word for the guy with the oval of track. Some people just don’t enjoy the amount of work it takes to model your own house, build a super-station or build flawless old west buildings (you guys know who I am talking about). Further, the skills these latter-mentioned guys have were not a birthright, they were learned over time and required a level of dedication, which is really the issue. Its what they wanted to do.I would like to be able to build like some of the modellers here, and will improve over time, but time is what its about. Your average modeller won’t put 30 hours and 100 bucks worth of material into a structure that as Ray mentioned, is going outside anyway, when something that will fit the bill can be had for 150.00. The math doesn’t support scratch building.The only real reason to scratch build are for the individual to decide, with thier set of parameters such as 1. time available2. finances available3. skillset, or willing to learnThats not really a decline, its the evolution of the hobby. A revolution (like the one bringing down another large scale site) will not affect this process.If you ask Ray to come up with a realistic log of his time and materials spent, and attach a dollar figure to the time, I have no doubt that his latest project, ‘Coras Closet’, is enough to make an average modeller faint.How about Bruce with his Mikado. A stunning model by any standard. The time he has in that project, and the level of detail are scary. Don’t ask how much he has tied up in tools to do the things he has done with it. Thats what they like to do, and they are (among MANY others) damn good at what they do.I use these boards, and take very good notes from all of these guys. It is a ‘club’ of sorts, that does well at sharing information where a local club has a limited geographical scope. I’ll be the first to bail when it goes political or someone starts taking cheap shots at others. Thats not why I am here. Its about the hobby.Hope that wasn’t ‘preachy’.
Just so we’re clear, my post wasn’t meant as a put down against anyone. We all get different things out of this hobby. I do a lot of scratch-building and detailing only because that’s what I enjoy – but it’s not for everyone, and that’s ok.
Ray Dunakin said:I doubt it was taken that way, Ray. BTW, thanks for the inspiration.
Just so we're clear, my post wasn't meant as a put down against anyone. We all get different things out of this hobby. I do a lot of scratch-building and detailing only because that's what I enjoy -- but it's not for everyone, and that's ok.
Ray,
I will never have your skills but your work inspires me to try. The quality of your work and your ideas give me lots of ideas. Anybody that follows your projects knows you aren’t putting anyone down.
My Pap was a farmer and self taught-machinist. He and my father and uncle would take other people’s cast off junk and adapt it to build whatever they wanted. As kids we got to help a lot. I’d LIKE to say I learned from them, but their idea of us kids ‘helping’ involved a %$#& wire brush and grease scraper 99.5% of the time, a push broom the rest… Okay, I learned. I learned after the FIRST time that I don’t like ANY of those tools. Given a choice, I’ll paint over grease first! In spite of that I usually build stuff using other people’s cast offs. Just in a scale that rarely requires a wire brush… Okay, maaaaayyybe I did somehow pick up the ‘eye’ for adaptive re-use. But Pap went to his grave with all those other mechanical, machinist, and carpentry skills in HIS head, rather than shared. I guess what I’m trying to say is, don’t just bemoan declining skills, PASS THEM ON!!! – to as many people as you can. And do it when they WANT to learn – not just when you ‘feel like’ teaching. Some of Pap’s projects- traction engine and sawmill, both designed and built without written plans, he also restored the Chevy dump in the background, and portabl Keystone to the right, and built the announcer’s tower as well…
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/steamnut1917/show%20collage/steam8.jpg)
15" gauge train set, also built without plans
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/steamnut1917/show%20collage/train2.jpg)
Keystone driller rebuilt from a pile of rusty twisted parts
(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/steamnut1917/show%20collage/P8010064.jpg)
Good point Mik.
My Dad was very talented. He could make anything.
Fabricated one of the first “Rocket Packs”. You know, the one you strap on your back.
He could do any type of art, and do it very well.
He built experimental cars for Fisher Body, by hand.
Didn’t take the time to teach me any of it.
Ralph
My dad had no talent for mechanical, electrical or other such things, but he sure knew how to cook up a storm. 
I picked some of that up from him.
And I picked a trade - tool and die - that had nothing whats-o-ever to do with what he was doing. In retrospect a very, very, very wise decision.
Apart from that, with his inclination I never ever had to share my trains and could learn all by myself, just as long as I got all the different experimenter sets as presents. 
My Dad was an automobile upholster by trade after coming back from WWII. He worked for Fisher Body, then an auto upholstery shop and then started his own. Business declined as products got better and lasted longer, but as a youth I could install seat belts, seat covers and assist with convertible tops and carpet installs for rebuilds and custom built cars. I use the skills I learned from him on a sewing machine, every time I use a bandsaw. By 1975, the auto upholstery business was almost gone and he used his many skills to become an electrician, that he worked at until his retirement ten years later. Because of him, I learned to not be concerned about failing or trying a different way to make a living. I also learned that careers were what you trained for and jobs were what paid the bills. That I was his most successful product and that my children, his grandchildren were our greatest accomplishments. That to work well and hard, you had to have time to relax and enjoy a little bit of life. That whether you were working on an old car, an old boat or a model of a car or a boat, if you were enjoying it, you could call it a hobby. That when you failed at something, you usually learned a lot more than when it was easy and it worked the first time. That there should be no extra parts when you put a transmission back together and if you cut a live electrical wire, there is a big flash of light before it gets real dark. Dad liked to fish, I never found the enjoyment with the fishing, but man did I learn to love the boats and water, my son is the fisherman like his Grandpa. Dad has been gone 17 years and I still want to work a problem past him, share an idea or show him my latest accomplishment. 3 of our 4 accomplishments stayed with us last night and the boy, Luke, he’s 5, ran a train with his grandpa, me, this morning. He checked and swept every set of points before his train went through the turnout. We went to a hobby shop late yesterday afternoon, chased the light rail commuter train through the country side between stops and visited an HO layout about 7 pm, that I normally operate on on most Friday evenings.
But this discussion is about “Modeling Skills” and they are many different things, not just putting pieces of plastic together or filing and soldering metal or wood. Can we really say that modeling skills are declining, if we use a ready made piece of equipment on a railroad that we are modeling? Even the large railroads bought and buy their equipment and rolling stock from suppliers. It wasn’t all built in the company back shops. I know what is being stated and argued is that the hands on skills at reproducing engines and rolling stock are not being developed. And that many times the track is put together with rail clamps instead of being assembled from rails, ties and spikes, but look at how many older railroads were just loops of track with the hand built models endlessly going in circles until everyone was bored, something broke or it got dark and/or cold. We now model switching yards, recreate switching manuevers, duplicate paperwork or software used by class 1 railroads or shortlines or create models of a picture of a long gone Zephyr crossing a bridge or the prairie.
So when saying that modeling skills are declining are we talking about the ability to duplicate a piece of model railroad rolling stock or building? Or are the modeling skills that some are creating being used and expanded each and every day to create a model railroad that models a real or fictional operating railroad. Actually, I think an argument can be made that modeling skills are expanding and increasing in detail constantly.
Could nt build me a “National” but I made me a “Les Paul” type thing a few years ago. Its still going strong…
I just enjoy the process, plus it seems that many of the things I want, no one makes. No one made streamliner cars when I wanted some 15 years ago, so I made my own. Same with my McKeen car, no one made one, so I did. I’m never happier than when I’m working on a project, it’s more the problem solving and making than it is having the final product. I’m having a blast with my rotary snow blower, based on the UP prototype that they made in the UP shops in Omaha. I helped both my kids restore their old Mustangs and both are quite capable of doing work on things, both have young kids still and don’t have much time for hobbys right now. I love the term ‘check book hobbyist’. Guys that just buy everything but make nothing. Their layouts all look the same with shiny plastic Piko buildings. I see lots of fine modeling going on and get inspired every day by posts by various builders.
I think you can blame some of the decline of hand skills on the schools. Shop classes are very rare anymore, around here they teach 'industrial technology' learning how things are made, but no hands on work at all. Same with wood shop, there is NONE in the middle school, where you used to take it for 3 years(when a Jr Hi), so the high school shop is basically what Jr Hi shop used to be and many advanced skills are never learned. Shoot, my Jr Hi had a metal shop with lathes, wood shop with everything and an industrial arts where you did drafting. Try finding that today!Jerry,
It most likely is a difference between a rural and suburban environment, but CAD software has replaced mechanical drafting in the classroom and our high school industrial arts class builds a house here in town, every two years. It is auctioned off to pay for the purchase of the property and the materials for the next one. The auction always draws a big crowd. These are very nice homes with lots of local businesses and trades, teaching the kids how to do everything right from laying out the site, to pouring the foundation, hanging the kitchen cabinets, all the electricity, air conditioning and heating, plus the normal construction, including a brick front. My son is still very proud of the house he helped build. As are the classes before him and after him. The current house under construction is 2200 square feet and in the middle of a very nice development, about 3 blocks from the high school.
Naaaaa model building is alive and well…10 years ago everyone whined cause there was nothing ready to run in largescale…now that there is…everyone is still whining…Nothing makes it on my rairoad with out an extensive rebuild…I also do static models of Scifi subjects and aircraft…My 14 y/o daughter builds models on occasions when school/sports allows and my 7 y/o grandson has recently been showing an interest in taking things apart and building models…things I intend to encourage at EVERY opportunity!
Funny thing, my problem isn’t desire, or even skills so much. But before I finish one project, the idea for several others bites harder than whatever I’m working on. My current LS projects half built or in the parts scrounging stages include:
- An Erie crane - almost done except the operator’s seat and weathering.
- My daughter’s steam dummy - needs the trailing truck wired and some pilot detail work.
- 2-4-4-2 Logger - wiring, cab detail, piping, trailing truck mounted, final assembly, paint and weathering.
- Passenger station - I have 3 walls done, what can I say?
- Sawmill diorama - main belt, sawdust conveyor, slab pile, log pile, ground cover
- Americanized Stainz power tender - wiring, couplers
- Kalamazoo Obs car - figure out where I put the trucks, build interior.
- Lombard log hauler - the half finished shell from feebay will arrive any day. I have crawler parts and cylinders… not sure what else I need yet.
- Kenworth low boy truck - came with the crane. I took it apart to detail it 6 months ago. All the parts are still in the box… I hope
- Tardis - fix a few details, make window muntins and paint.
And that’s JUST the LS ones! I have several 3/4" and 1/3 scale things cooking, plus about five 1:1 machinery restoration projects… All I need to do is to hit the lotto, and give up sleeping for the next year!
I don’t think that the availability of off-the-shelf stuff has a very big effect on the modeling aspect of the hobby. It just opens up the hobby to more people. The people who like to build, will always do so; meanwhile the people who don’t like to build, or lack the time, can still get into the hobby.
It also allows people to concentrate on the areas where their talents shine most – for instance, someone can buy locos and rolling stock but still scratch-build their own structures. Or vice versa. Not to mention reducing the amount of time and labor needed just to get a layout up and running.
On the other hand, I do think that sometimes people get so used to buying stuff that the idea of kitbashing or scratch-building doesn’t even occur to them.
I think Mik’s note ansers why I have so much stuff piled on the work desk. And this week I’m going to try building a “mountain” on the layout. My rocks are rounder than the ones Ray hauled home but I think I can make them work. At least I don’t need a budget to build with rocks! Just a strong back like Ray’s.
I’ve been watching this thread with interest. Modeling skills and making things skills and even knowing how to use tools skills are all intertwined.
When I was in junior high school mid later 1950’s we had wood shop and when I went to high school after that we had auto shop. I used to build model car kits back then. The schools never had a trade school approach here in Monterey though so not much came of the courses. My step father taught me to use hand tools starting when I was around seven years old. I still have a scar from learing how to use a hand saw. He also taught me a good work ethic I think. Went in the Navy as a deck ape where not many technical skills were needed. Years later in the government civil service I got into a trades program in heating and electrical where it was a two year hands on and book course with journeyman staus at the end. It worked. I became one of the top heating mechanics at Fort Ord with skills including those of reading and understanding schematics and using meters to chase problems. Then they turned it all into crap when they abolished the journeyman programs making anybody instant heat mechanics in the course of saving money. Many mistakes were made including fires and unrepaired gas leaks while new hires getting the same pay as me could not diagnose or repair rat crap in a bag. When the Navy took over maintenance at Fort Ord in 1994 I was tasked to help the SeaBees disasemble and remove the equipment from the carpenter shop. Much of this stuff was 240 v and it turned out that the Seabee Electricians had neither wigees or multimeters and had no idea that the voltage in this equipment could injure them.
Really a good indicator of the times. I think that unless we get back our trade skills model making skills will continue to decline. I still make a lot of the stuff on my railroad because I can’t see paying some of the outrageous prices like the Oil Tanks from Piko for example where I can modify a coffee can to be almost as good (in my eyes.) Hell, I’m 66 years old so maybe I have a bad outlook on crap now a days though.
Rudy, I think this country has developed a serious attitude problem when it comes to skilled trades. All the skilled trade jobs have been “outsourced” or given to underpaid illegals. Nowadays everyone’s supposed to get an MBA and become stock brokers or managers something. Of course the flaw there is that there’ll never be that many jobs for people with degrees – already there are people who can’t get work to match their education level.