I have a 20 by 12 layout in my basement ha ha no cold
Yeah Troy, we just a a boat in harbor, the coasties had to bust some ice up so it could get back out.
Terry
Terry, I stole this photo from the Ottawa Valley Garden Railway Society web site.
Fr. Fred says that he has great success with this method, concrete blocks on top of leveled pavers, supporting the bench work. The weight is sufficient to outsmart most frost heave, and any that occurs, can be dealt with by a good downward push. Ottawa probably has worse heave than do you, so you might consider this.
Here is the link for further study: http://ovgrs.org/track/track-work-introduction/
I have the greatest sympathy for guys who get frost heave. I had never heard of it before I got into garden railroading. Luckily it never occurs here. M biggest bugbear here is a beautiful, large, magnolia tree. It sheds its bud coatings, petals (which are rubbery in feel) and leaves in the fall. So that always gives me work on the ROW!
Those Ottawa guys seem to have got it taped. It is always worthwhile checking their website to see what they are up to.
Its strange to hear about all the frost heave issues yet I have never experienced any of it and everyone sees the weather I deal with. My method is dig a 4-6 inch trench. Lay crusher fines down and tamp it down good. Then lay track and add more stone dust. Anywhere I see balast being washed away gets a nice wall, either rock or wood. That fixes all my washouts. Im not sure why I have great luck vs others in a similiar or even warmer climates. I even have a few spots that do not drain well and still no frost heave.
Shawn (napkin builder) Viggiano said:
Its strange to hear about all the frost heave issues yet I have never experienced any of it and everyone sees the weather I deal with.
You have it you just do see it.
Terry,
On the stakes for your ladder roadbed, did you angle cut the bottoms before you drove them in? I have found by experimentation that cutting the bottoms at an angle not only allows the stakes to be driven in easier, it makes them less likely to be forced back up by frost heave. I have also found that PVC stakes are less prone to heaving than wood stakes.
A while back, I posted a short video of how I put down a section of ladder roadbed on my layout. About 10 seconds into the video you can see one of the angled stakes before I drove it into the ground.
http://largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/20490/building-red-rock-canyon
I cut my stakes from Schedule 40 1 1/4" PVC pipe about 24" long. I drive them anywhere from 12" to 18" into the ground and come back later after the track is laid and add fill under the ladder to bring the height up to finish level
This past winter was the coldest we had had in the fifteen years I have lived here. Lots of single-digit temps. I did have some damage to the ties due to ice build-up and falling tree branches, but the ladder roadbed didn’t move a bit.
bob
Terry,
I live in a zone of extreme hot and cold. My track floats on crusher fines. The only thing I have to do in the spring is re-level it a little and push a few joiners back together. No heave what so ever. No ladder, no footings, no stakes, etc. The Geezers come by and the whole thing is done and ready for trains in an hour or so.
I wanted the least amount of maintenance, and this has proved the best for me.
jb
Thanks for the tips and experience with the weather.
I think I’m going to pull up my stakes and leave the roadbed. I ‘may’ put in PVC pipe for stakes but i’m not sure yet. I don’t know if i can get it in between the ladder. On my elevated section I used 2" PVC for legs and it didn’t appear to move at all. I left the legs hollow though, I don’t know if that had any impact or not.
Most of my ladder base is in the ground or i gravel so I’m hoping it won’t snake if it does I’ll tear it all out.
Thus begins another ‘adventure’
Terry
Bob Hyman said:
Terry,
On the stakes for your ladder roadbed, did you angle cut the bottoms before you drove them in? I have found by experimentation that cutting the bottoms at an angle not only allows the stakes to be driven in easier, it makes them less likely to be forced back up by frost heave. I have also found that PVC stakes are less prone to heaving than wood stakes.
A while back, I posted a short video of how I put down a section of ladder roadbed on my layout. About 10 seconds into the video you can see one of the angled stakes before I drove it into the ground.
http://largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/20490/building-red-rock-canyon
I cut my stakes from Schedule 40 1 1/4" PVC pipe about 24" long. I drive them anywhere from 12" to 18" into the ground and come back later after the track is laid and add fill under the ladder to bring the height up to finish level
This past winter was the coldest we had had in the fifteen years I have lived here. Lots of single-digit temps. I did have some damage to the ties due to ice build-up and falling tree branches, but the ladder roadbed didn’t move a bit.
bob
Bob, I find it interesting that you suggest cutting the posts at an angle to avoid frost heave. Others have sugested just the opposite. Now, I wonder if it makes a difference, at all?
If you have PVC pipe as stakes it has been my experience you will have little frost heave, I had mine out for 4 years used live on South Side of Chicago till moved to NW Indiana.
Bob is correct if you have flat bottoms on stakes it will push up big time.
I used 2 in pipe 24in into the ground, never had a problem.
Ground needs something to push against, also learned the hard way depends on how much moisture you have in ground that will dictate ground heave, if you have good drainage low moisture content low frost heave.
Tom H
There are “many” factors that come into play here with this thread.
Yes there are. I have heard flat bottom stakes don’t heave or angled stakes don’t heave and everyone has solid data to prove their point. There are so many factors going on, temps, ground type, fill vs. virgin ground moisture level etc etc etc. I’m just looking for ideas. I have my own but collective thought can bring up ideas that i never dreamed of. Currently though I am not financially able to do what i want, that’s a retirement thing I’m thinking. so, I guess i have to deal with what’s in front me or give it up.
Terry
So I started to work on the layout. Some things I have noticed. I have 3 lengths of stakes 12" 24" & 48". They all heaved the same. Some were tapered bottom some were flat bottom, they all heaved the same. The pressure treated stakes were like new under ground and started to rot above ground.
So far I have removed about 100 stakes. I’m about half way. Not to bad for four hours of work with a couple beer brakes. The next part is gonna suck though because its all ballasted.
Terry
I went down about 30" with my post and have very little problems. Been out there about six years now.
I drilled a hole 24’ deep drove the post in another 4 -6", back filled with dirt.
Hey guys just a word of advice about pressure treated post. Most post, 4x4 for example are made from the center core wood of a tree. That center is the hardest wood on a tree and does not allow the full process of treating to penetrate it. Thats why the tags say to not place directly on or in the ground they will rot.
I feel your pain Terry. I got a little frost heave this year. But I think it was more due to the ground around it than the stake itself. I was able to push the couple stakes back down and they stayed.
I found out something a few years back after my first winter. I use 1" PVC pipe as my stakes and then fill in dirt up to the top of the ladder. The stakes really act as an anchor and not the support. I had also sealed the top of the pipe with some silicon, so water couldn’t get into the bottom of the pipe.
After my first winter I had pretty good heave in a section I had not sealed the top of the pipe, because that was a future bridge. My figuring is that water leaked to the bottom of the pipe from the unsealed top and froze, which caused the frost heave. I wonder if anyone else has had the same problem??
Yes…another year of very deep frost, and no frost heave problems…mostly due to the fact that we don’t put any posts of any type into the ground…we float everything…if there is a bit of frost heave; we leave it alone and it slowly goes back into place.
The track is layed on 2x pressure treated roadbed, and it just floats on whatever is backfilled under it…simple and has been successful for over 10 years in an area that gets deep frost…
…in case anyone is interested…
It is common knowledge, in deep frost areas, that any posts put into the ground, even when concrete is used to support the post in the hole; will move with the frost, unless the post is in deep enough to bottom below the maximum frost depth.
I have a large fence post with a gate on it. The other end of the gate is latched to a fixture on the house.
During the full year, the post moves in the soil anywhere from an inch, or three, up and down. Even the moisture content of the soil causes this fluctuation…along with the frost. It sure isn’t the house moving, as its foundation is on bed rock…
I can’t understand the use of those “Pipes” to support the ladder roadbed. Why not just support it with backfill, and or anything (Rocks, old bricks, dead body parts, etc) you want to get rid of. This would save the cost of the pipe/posts, and avoid putting them into the ground, to be moved by the frost.
But…as I suggest…what do I know…I’ve only been operating a outdoor railroad on PT roadbed for 20 or more years, and am still learning…!!
… and good joinery at the butt ends of the planking making them act as a single unit mitigates the ‘buckle’ effect. The more one can make the entire deck act as one piece the less effect any heave will have on the specific area, as the effect is spread over a larger area.