Large Scale Central

Frost heave = epic frustration level

Track and Trestles
#1

So, when i started my layout i dug and used a gravel base which was good except every time it rained the base washed out then after winter it looked like a roller coaster. I don’t mind maintenance but i grew tired of a total rebuild every spring. So after a few years i decided to build a ladder base. I spent an entire summer redoing the base. That winter a small 5’ section heaved a little. No worries i pushed it back in. Last winter half the layout heaved. This winter the entire thing heaved about 5 inches.

I’m frustrated beyond belief. It was reported that the frost line drove down to 54 inches this year which is unheard of for us. We are usually at 24-30.

My problem is, I can’t get all my track back in the ground. I’m going to have to dig, alot. i don’t think I want to…

So, has anyone had success with building a ladder base that isn’t staked in the ground? My thought process is this; the gravel base won’t hold and the stakes get driven out by frost so maybe just an unstaked ladder base? My next step after this is to tear it out and throw it all away.

Oh, and for the record I can’t afford to build bench work or I would have years ago.

Terry

#2

Terry I tried the ladder with no ground stakes and it was horrible …snaked all over the place where I got full sun. I pound my ladder stakes in with…http://images.palcdn.com/hlr-system/WebPhotos/29/294/2943/2943298.jpg?_v=ab5a0d73-824a-438c-a063-efd4fae3f02f

#3

Hi Terry,

What are you using for ballast and roadbed? Perhaps going without stakes might require a bit of crushed stone first?

In the past I’ve always had my track directly on the ground using stone dust (crusher fines) at least once a year. I had enough curves and hills that the movement of the track was less noticeable. Today on my new layout I have much more level, long straightaways that expose roadbed flaws. In the fall I put down a deep layer of 3/4in driveway base, which has both fines and 3/4 crushed stone mixed. I then placed the track upon this and covered it with fresh stone dust. Aside from washouts, the corridor avoided frost-related problems. Still, I am also considering the ladder method for the new layout in order to level out track joints. Given my experiences this winter, it seems to make sense not to stake the track, as the upper level where the crushed stone exisits seems to be more resistent to heaving.

#4

I feel your pain Terry. I got a lot more ladder heave this winter than normal. Some pushed back down like it always has, but one section wont budge and will need to be dug out to re-grade.

My 5" thick reinforced concrete roadbed sections seemed to have stayed put; thank goodness. I would not rebuild if they failed.

#5

Frost heave is an experience anyone building anything outdoors will eventually will have. 54" frost line is a huge depth to deal with, but even here in sunny Florida we have our issues as well. The club layout is in the panhandle of Florida where we see seasons, but not usually any real cold weather. NOT THIS YEAR!!! We had several spells of overnight sub freezing weather last for several days. Our layout is a raised / backfilled on PVC ladder layout, 2" posts 18-24" deep set in concrete, and we still get movement, even without the cold weather. Terry, you are not alone. And quite frankly I don’t believe a raised railroad will fair much better, regardless of buried or on the surface supports. MHO

Bob C.

#6

After the rough winter we have just had I still have not braved out into the yard where the railway sits, I am hoping all will be fine after just laying all the track down last summer.

#7

Sometimes I miss having an outdoor layout, but then I read stuff like this and realize the advantages I have being stuck in the Great Indoors.

#8

Ok how about 6ft down. I work for a village dpw where we have our own water dept. First two weeks of march we had 8 water main brakes. Most of our mains are about five feet down but we have to dig lower to get below the pipe. We hit frozen clay boulders at 6ft yikes.

#9

Troy, what city & state? Gives us an idea of frost depth near us.

#10

NE Ohio, according to his avatar label.

I must be lucky. I did the compacted crusher fines in a trench thing, and I don’t notice any track heave AFTER everything thaws. My cement bridge abutments have moved a little some springs, but not enough to cause any issues. I just push them back down. And since I poured a cement base for my trestle, its not an issue anymore neither. The previous trestle didn’t have the cement base, and one spring it looked like I was trying to model a roller coaster.

#11

Buffalo ny those long cold snaps put us at the deepest frost line in many many years

#12

When the frost starts to heave 8 to 10 inch mains they just dont bend they crack. The area were in has alot of rock boulders they shift too and can puncture holes in cast iron water pipe.

#13

Troy, I work for the FD in my community. I have a few buddies in the water dept. Same thing here, water breaks everywhere. The daily water loss was astronomical. Our water system like most of the north east coast is ancient.

As far as the layout, I don’t know what i’m going to do. The stakes aren’t working, gravel doesn’t work. I can’t/won’t do concrete and benchwork is outta the question.

I understand mother nature has to be dealt with but this total yearly rebuild is just getting out of hand and really killing the fun and relaxation of the hobby.

A fire sale may be around the corner…

Terry

#14

Usually we have mild Winters here on Cape Cod compared to the rest of Mass. but this year was extra cold for us and one of my bridges got wonky due to frost heave.

Global warming ???

#15

-T-, I get your steamers. You remember that song, " I’ve Been Working On The Railroad"?

#16

Here on the great lakes the shipping season has started. Some of these ore carriers are 1000 ft long. One just was damaged the other day trying to smash through 6ft thick ice on lake superior. The us coast guard has nine ice breakers on the lakes now

#17

Not much you do. You cant control mother nature.

#18

Todd they say climate change means greater extremes, hotter summers and yes, colder winters.

Terry time to move indoors. Com’on wouldn’t those trains look great in the living room?

:wink:

#19

No wonder science is trying to bring back fred flintstones vacuum the wooly mammoth

#20

Vic, Terry’s wife would have him tied across the tracks!