Large Scale Central

engines dropping into switch?

Track and Trestles
#1

I have a aristocraft brass WYE switch that has developed a problem. I recently got a 3 truck shay and when it went through the wye switch heading to the left it would drop off the rails. Entering the switch and heading to the right it didn’t have a problem. Other engines did not have any problems so I checked the gauge on the 3 truck shays front truck and it was fine. I started to think that it might be the weight of the loco pushing out the gauge of the points.

Today I ran a 2 truck shay and a heisler through the switch and they both fell through?

What happened to my switch? Everything seems tight on it but I think the points are being pushed over.

Thanks

#2

The first thing I would check is side to side level. Next I’d check the points with a track gauge.

#3

Probably too much train racing! (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-cool.gif)

#4

time to measure the gauge of the switch.

How did you check the gauge of the shay? what is the gauge? what is the back to back?

Is it derailing at the points, or falling into the frog?

All common items.

Greg

#5

Todd, interesting that you say the switch has developed a problem, and that you say you recently got the 3-truck Shay. Does that mean the switch used to be OK with the other two engines? If so, something has changed, and since you say everything seems tight, and that the problem is only on the left route, has one point rail gotten bent a little? It does sound like a gauge problem in the switch. I suggest compare the gauges on the two routes.

Often in cases like this, it can help to have a sharp-eyed observer watch an engine go through the switch and if possible see just where the derailment happens. This is easiest if the engine is run very slowly, or if possible move the engine through the switch about a quarter inch at a time. It is possible that the trucks don’t swivel enough, but since there is a problem with several engines, this seems very unlikely.

Bill

#6

My Live steam Shay will do the same but as soon as I re level the switch side to side it works fine. Other then that I would try what Greg suggested.

#7

Could it be that you haven’t noticed that the screw attaching one of the point rails to the throw bar has fallen out…or the throw bar has cracked or broken at one of the screw locations ? As some would suggest; it is wise to observe very closely what is actually happening.

#8

Todd,

I would first check for side-side level or that the switch hasn’t “folded” over a rock underneath.

The points are not usually an issue on the AC switches I’ve owned, but its possible one of the point rails has a slight bend either creating a trip point or a gauge issue. One solution would be too grind a bit of the stock rail so that the point rail can make a tighter mesh. I did this when modifying #6 switches to accept the Bachmann switch stand. While I only have two of these, I cannot recall a time when either has worked less than perfectly.

If the problem is at the frog, I would simply shim the guard rail. I suspect most of my #6’s could use this, as the frogs are noisey (but don’t cause derailments).

#9

Not to be contrary, but Aristo switches are well known for gauge issues, I’d measure first, switches are better when they are level crossways, but it’s not super critical.

I have 10 pages on Aristo track and switches on my site, start at this main page, it has links to the 10 sub pages:

http://www.elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=317&Itemid=350

Greg

#10

It’s rather odd, that the person with the problem, hasn’t appeared to have bothered to return to get all the suggestions, or even comment. I wonder if he has found what the problem is, or is posting other places too…It would be nice to get some feedback…

#11

They asked the question less than 24 hours ago. Give them a chance to come by and look.

#12

If Todd reads all 11 pages on my site, he might never come back ha ha!

Some measuring will also help, and he could be doing that also.

Greg

#13

Bob McCown said:

They asked the question less than 24 hours ago. Give them a chance to come by and look.

I thought your time was up after 2.4 minutes?(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-embarassed.gif)

I guess I can slow down a bit more…(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif)

#14

Yeah Fred give me a chance LOL

There is a wealth of info on Gregs site and I did get lost in there.

I think I found the problem and it is due to Aristos loose standards. The points on WYE switch are nearly 9 inches long so there is lots of chance for a loco to fall in. The switch sits on blocks and is level enough but I noticed the right point has more play in it than the left one so when the train is leaving to the left there is pressure pushed onto the right side of the switch point and that extra play allows the engine to fall in.

I had to run just a truck through there by hand over and over again to try and replicate what happens. It is just a small movement by that right point rail but enough to cause a problem.

Now to fix it. What is holding the point to the plastic bar that goes to the switch machine looks to be a small rivet. Cant this rivet be pressed on from both sides to tighten it up or should I be thinking about gluing it. If gluing what will work good outdoors brass to plastic? E6000?

Thanks.

#15

It is NOT a rivet but a small screw in a bushing in the throw bar, it’s a philips head and put a bit of liquid wrench on the exposed threads topside if it looks anything but pristine.

The way it works is the brass bushing is slightly longer than the thickness of the throw bar, so when the screw is tightened, the screw head hits the end of the bushing, and the other end of the bushing is on the point rail. The bushing pivots freely in the throwbar.

Sounds like your screw is loose.

(no offense)

Greg

#16

Oh, remember that the flangeways on the stock rails can also be too wide. back to back is critical, more critical than gauge.

Greg

#17

Ok…sorry for rushing you.

Now that you have found the loose screw in the point rail, at the “Throw Bar”, and realize that you have to turn the switch over to get at that screw. You had best look at the screw at the other end of the point rail too. All these screws can often be found loose, even when the switch is new-in-the-box.

It would be a good idea to use some locktite on all of them, but do not tighten them too much, or the point rails will bind.

It is always wise to check all screws on the underside of all Aristo, and USTrains switches. I find that just about all of them are loose when new.

I remember the first #6 switch I ever saw at Charlie Ro’s booth at the ECLSTS. I opened the box, and found just about every screw loose or in the bottom of the box… Aristo wasn’t much better.

#18

I see I need a picture of the actual assembly, I have pictures of dead throwbars, but not the screw and bushing.

I’m more of a fan on loctite on these screws, but some people have good experience with a shot of silicone on the screws.

One thing is the lousy wiring underneath will soon dissolve and corrode and rust.

Greg

#19

It sounds like I will need to pull this switch out for repair.

What photo angles do you need Greg? When the switch comes out I can snap a few for you.

#20

Take a picture of the underside, and the screws in place in the throwbar, then a picture with the screws out showing the brass bushings in place in the throwbar, and finally the screws, the bushings and the throwbar all in a composite group, all in as high resolution as you can muster, if you please.

No big deal, I can do it on the weekend, but if you can, and email them to me, it would be appreciated.

Put a little silicon or other plastic compatible grease on the outer side of the bushing, but be careful not to get it inside, if you are planning to loctite the threads of the screw. It might be a lot easier to disassemble, clean, reassemble, then a drop on the exposed threads of the screws in the points, do this from topside… then a few drops of heavy gear oil (from the train oils, not motor oils) to lube the bushing in the throwbar.

Lubing it afterwards ensures that the loctite will not be thwarted by oil in the threads. I’d use blue loctite, no reason to go to anything tougher than that. Red would be overkill, and could be an issue in the future if you had to disassemble.

(never thought I could write so much about so little ha ha!)

Greg