Ralph,
I agree that it’s not about sending anyone to jail. It’s just an online lynch mob in my opinion.
LAO
Larry, I really don’t think it is. If someone could simply come out and say “what no one saw in teh pictures was that the caboose had complete, fully detailed functional brake rigging, and thats why we voted it BoS. Don’t like it? piss off then.”
A response like that (verbatim) would be 100% acceptable to me. I can’t speak for the others who want answers, but all I’m looking for is a legit reason that says, yes this did win for a legit reason that I didn’t know about because I didn’t bother to stick around the show long enough to SEE the damned model in the first place.
I honestly beleive that an impartial, dispationate view of the pictures presented of the two models in question merit an explaination, simply because there is no visible reason that the caboose should pull ahead of the combine.
I personally thought the BoS was the Norfolk Southern slug engine… before anyone claims I am partial because NS signs my paycheck (well, authorizes the direct deposits anyways, lol) my only partiality is to engines with tenders behind.
edit: changed impartial to partial… the typo completely changed the meaning of the post.
Larry Otis said:
So you want the judges who volunteered their time at the show to explain their votes/ratings.
In a word, YES. I feel the final judging was that poor that an explanation is warranted. Plain and simple, as I posted on the Aristo forum:
The event was sponsored by Aristo Craft.
The judges were chosen by Aristo Craft.
The prizes were provided by Aristo Craft and locked to Aristo Craft to redeem.
The prize winning car in question looked like a bashed Aristo Craft gondola.
I stated my opinion of the problem and a recommended solution to Harry (I forget his last name) on the Aristo Craft forum, you are weldome to read the post if you wish. Time will tell whether or not a real fix to the issue will ever be implemented.
I thought only the Red Box guys were this fanatical, I guess I was mistaken. I also take from your vehement defense of the judging that you were either one of the judges or employed by Aristo Craft (my opinion ONLY).
I rest my case.
Bob C.
Larry,
I think people expressing their frustration hardly qualifies as an online lynch mob.
I’ve been to hundreds of contests over the years. Everything from Chili Cook-Offs to modeling contests.
This is the first I’ve ever heard of judges being anonymous.
Personally, I’ve never been shy about voicing my opinions. And I’m always more than happy to back my opinions with my name and reputation.
An anonymous opinion is, quite frankly, worthless 
Ralph
…or was that your model Larry?
A simple direct question, requiring a simple ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ answer.
Bob C.
Bob,
Neg. Any modeling I do is for my own self satisfaction and does not have anything to do with Model railroads.
Regards,
LAO
Bob Cope said:
Larry Otis said:
So you want the judges who volunteered their time at the show to explain their votes/ratings.
In a word, YES. I feel the final judging was that poor that an explanation is warranted. Plain and simple, as I posted on the Aristo forum:
The event was sponsored by Aristo Craft.
The event is sponsored by Aristocraft but the contest was not.
The judges were chosen by Aristo Craft.
Yes and no. The person who chose the judges though employed by Aristo is a G scale promoter and stepped up to run the contest after LSOL dropped doing it.
The prizes were provided by Aristo Craft and locked to Aristo Craft to redeem.
They stepped up to the plate to provide them.
The prize winning car in question looked like a bashed Aristo Craft gondola.
It looked like an Aristo Craft gondola, so?
I stated my opinion of the problem and a recommended solution to Harry (I forget his last name) on the Aristo Craft forum, you are weldome to read the post if you wish.
My fix. Don’t have them anymore and offer the space to another dealer or club.
Time will tell whether or not a real fix to the issue will ever be implemented.
I thought only the Red Box guys were this fanatical, I guess I was mistaken.
Way to much piling on and someone had to say something in their defense. Way too much complaining about this contest and ones in the past at the ECLSTS no matter who has run them.
I also take from your vehement defense of the judging that you were either one of the judges or employed by Aristo Craft (my opinion ONLY).
Not employed by Aristo (When your hobby becomes your business it is no longer your hobby.) but am standing up for people who were judges in this that are too disgusted by what has been said about them. Doesn’t matter if I was one or not.
I rest my case.
Bob C.
Larry Otis said
Not employed by Aristo (When your hobby becomes your business it is no longer your hobby.) but am standing up for people who were judges in this that are too disgusted by what has been said about them. Doesn’t matter if I was one or not.
Larry,
I appreciate your efforts. I hope we haven’t “soured” your opinion of us or the LSC forum.
However, if I was disgusted by what was being said about me, I would certainly stand up for myself and not hide behind anonymity
Obviously an explanation isn’t forthcoming.
I also appreciate your contributions to the hobby over the years, as well as Bruce Chandler’s contributions.
You have a good weekend 
I’m looking forward to the next ECLSTS!
Ralph
Larry,
Ditto Ralph.
Obviously opinions are not going to change, so I will move forward and leave this subject pass into history.
Have a great Easter Sunday with your family.
Bob C.
Well, I’ve heard is a lot of talk about what the rules were, who sponsored it, who picked the judges, and so forth and a lot of defense of the judges, what I haven’t heard yet is any defending of the judges decision and why they picked that particular model and what criteria they used to pick it. It certainly didn’t fit any of the categories in the Judges sheet that was posted, especially in “Detail; complexity, difficulty, refinement, overall level of detail”. Just in the level of difficulty, there were 4 or 5 others that completely overwhelmed that pick!
If you want to call this a “lynch mob”, then so be it, but that still didn’t answer the question.
Ken,
I almost missed the “youtube” selection buried in your signature line. Very good and enjoyable.
Great discussion, Guys! And a subject that needed to come to the surface. Maybe answers will come out, most likely they won’t.
Happy Easter, friends. Spring is here on the calendar and some days its here as to the temperatures.
Ric Golding said:
Ken,
I almost missed the “youtube” selection buried in your signature line. Very good and enjoyable.
I thought it appropriate in light of recent events…
Happy Easter, friends. Spring is here on the calendar and some days its here as to the temperatures.
Same to you, Ric…;
Hmmmmm I think Larry knows more then what he is telling us. So Larry why dont you tell us why the judges chose that model for best of show?
or better yet do you think that model should have won best of show? and if you think so why?
Everyone take a deep beath, and go outside and play with your trains…
GREAT IDEA, Bob…
Let’s fix it -2
Bob in response to your comment “I do not know how to fix it” let me say that you have already started. This has been a passionate discussion and it tells me that the contest is important and that we collectively want it.
None of the problems that were identified are insurmountable. We just need to address them once we exhaust the passion.
I have been to contests that have had similar problems. The contests were not scraped due to disagreement but fixed with creative solutions.
One possible problem that has not been discussed and I feel may be one of the core issues is the fact that not a lot of information was readily available about each entry. I know that each entry was asked to describe their work. This was done on the entry sheet. To the best of my knowledge this information was not passed on to the judges. If this was the case this is an important oversight. We all observed the entries as they were plopped down on a table cloth. I for one had no idea what it took to create each model. Since the show I have researched some of the entries and I will say that my new insights have either changed or enhanced my opinions. People that follow LCS or MLC do not necessarily follow Aristocraft or Bachman’s forums.
Judging can be a thankless assignment. But it does not have to be. We want fair judging but we also must make sure that the contest is fair to the judges. There are obviously a few different specific interests in model railroading. For instance, I feel that I would be comfortable judging mainline or narrow gauge subjects, but I would be hard pressed to objectively judge a live steam entry. If a single judging panel is selected to judge all of the entries, that panel should reflect the diversity of the entries. The judges should also work with each other and draw on their collective experience.
At most of the contests I have entered, the judges were available after the voting to discuss their decisions. In one case I thought I was “robbed”. I discussed this with the judge and found out what my short fall was. I had a vehicle on a trailer and he felt the wheels should have been chocked. I agreed and said that I did chock the wheels. We went over to the model and found the chocks in my carry box not on the trailer. I blew it not him. Feedback can be quite constructive.
In an extreme case of judging problems the solution that came about was to invite judges from the outside to come in. it should not be too hard to find qualified people in the state of Pennsylvania well versed in model railroading that would be willing to come see what we do and comment. A readily available pool of such people could come from model railroad clubs that work in other scales.
Expanded categories are always a great idea, but I would be hesitant to do that to start with unless there were more participants. To have more categories with single or no entries does not bit well for the contest. This past contest was small. Many of the contests I have been too had scores of entries with many being of the same or similar subjects. Let’s grow the contest before we expand the scope.
Alan
GREAT AMERICAN LOCOMOTION THE GAL LINE
Shawn Viggiano said:
Hmmmmm I think Larry knows more then what he is telling us. So Larry why dont you tell us why the judges chose that model for best of show?
or better yet do you think that model should have won best of show? and if you think so why?
Shawn,
I know a couple of judges not all of them. They each made their own judgements. I still feel that the contest should just be dropped in the future shows.
Regards,
LAO
Btw, Happey Easter and Happy belated Passover to all.
LAO
Btw, Happey Easter and Happy belated Passover to all.
LAO
I enjoyed the new contest. In the past I had won enough ribbons, and it was nice to have gift certificates.
IMHO, I am entering someone else’s contest, to their rules. I have to accept the Judge’s decision. Fine.
I don’t have to agree with it, neither should I or the Judges be lynched for disagreeing.
Let us move on, the judges have spoken. I much prefer the recognition of my peers, thank you for that. I for one, would not like to see the brand new contest scrapped after one in a row.
Let us agree to be respectful of the judges, and I feel the judges should not take offense at the offensive remarks. Everyone send me their prizes and entries, and I will look at them at my leisure and give you an unbiased opinion in a few years, give or take.
Meanwhile: HOPPY EASTER!