Large Scale Central

ECLSTS Contest

Conventions, Shows, Clubs and Get-Togethers
#21

I went to the Aristo site (something I very seldom do) looking for the rules. Didn’t find them.

Found categories and did NOT see a category for “Best of Show”.

The Modeling Contest continues to be the subject of many conversations and what seems to be the problem is "How was Best of Show " chosen? Not being a category listed, did it take a certain criteria to even be qualified to be considered? Maybe this is what is causing the heartburn?

As far as the Narrow Gauge Convention being judged by all the people paying for attendance, maybe that’s the answer? Only time I’ve attended was when displaying the “Timesaver” and did not pay for attendance and therefore did not get to participate in judging. Same thing would apply at the ECLSTS and I’d have no problem with that.

Show Organizers get to put on a contest any way they want to. WE get to have an opinion about how that was done.

#22

I see two posters on the Aristo site who are offended by Bruce’s remarks.

What I don’t see is an explanation as to why that particular model deserved the “Best in Show” award.

Their silence on the “issue” speaks volumes. As they say, the best defense is a good offense :wink:

Ralph

#23

Ric Golding said:

I went to the Aristo site (something I very seldom do) looking for the rules. Didn’t find them.

Found categories and did NOT see a category for “Best of Show”.

The Modeling Contest continues to be the subject of many conversations and what seems to be the problem is "How was Best of Show " chosen? Not being a category listed, did it take a certain criteria to even be qualified to be considered? Maybe this is what is causing the heartburn?

As far as the Narrow Gauge Convention being judged by all the people paying for attendance, maybe that’s the answer? Only time I’ve attended was when displaying the “Timesaver” and did not pay for attendance and therefore did not get to participate in judging. Same thing would apply at the ECLSTS and I’d have no problem with that.

Show Organizers get to put on a contest any way they want to. WE get to have an opinion about how that was done.

At the NNGC, the category winners are picked by attendee voting which yields the popular consensus.

Best of Show is picked by committee which can put the decision into question.

Models contests by nature are controversial and are right up there on the BS scale with discussions about politics, religion & sex

#24

I believe my exact words were " There is NO integrity at all in this contest. " Did I mention judges?

Integrity is a concept of consistency of actions, values, methods, measures, principles, expectations, and outcomes.

Now, if you take a look at the Judging forms please explain how the CONTEST has consistency of methods, expectations, and outcomes.

You may not like my choice of words; do you have others that would not offend you so?

I can’t figure out how to link to a PDF, so here are the sheets from a screen capture of the PDF:

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/thejoat/ECLSTS/ECLSTSJudgeP1.JPG)

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/thejoat/ECLSTS/ECLSTSJudgeP2.JPG)

#25

Bruce,

I can’t seem to view the judging forms cause I’m not a member of the AC forum. Do you have another link?

#26

Craig,

I’ve updated the link - you should be able to get to it now.

BTW, I feel that publicizing the judging sheets ahead of time was a very GOOD thing to do, as we modelers could finally see the criteria that would be used to judge our entries.

I guess that’s one of the reasons I was so disappointed in the outcome.

#27

I couldn’t see it either, Bruce nor have I found the rules.

I think Geoff’s definition of Model Contests is pretty accurate.

#28

I’m getting a 404 error :frowning:

Ralph

Bruce Chandler said:

Craig,

I’ve updated the link - you should be able to get to it now.

#29

Ack. I should have tested. :frowning:

OK. I’ve imbedded some screen captures instead of trying to link to a PDF. Sorry about that.

#30

Bruce,

The way you are saying it cast a wide net. What specifically lacks integrity?

Those who judged it?

Those who put it on?

The venue?

The show itself?

??

The reason I press this is that I know some of the judges. I spoke to one last nite and he is disgusted with the comments but is just walking away from and won’t get involved in judging anymore. BTW, He had no axe to grind against any of the entrants. Neither did any of the other judges I know.

There always seems axes to grind by people with this contest no matter who is running it or judging. Someone mentioned an RS3 that won a bunch of years ago. If it was an NH unit it wasn’t just a repaint. It had a bunch of work done on it not just a repaint.

Regards,

LAO

#31

Larry,

Perhaps you are correct.

I don’t see how a judge using those judging sheets can possibly rate the work caboose model as “Best of Show” while completely ignoring the combine. That’s what I mean by integrity.

It’s all about the results - they have to make sense in some fashion, yet NOBODY is trying to convince me that the work caboose deserved to win. Pick on me if you will, but please explain how that model won.

#32

Another ECLSTS, another model contest controversy? What else is new? Its the first time in a long time where I didn’t have a dog in the show so I feel free to be an “unbiased” observer. I don’t see an issue with the above judging sheet for the categories but maybe they need to add a separate Best in Show section where the judge’s top 5 are picked and given a score of between 1 and 5 with 5 as the best.

-Brian

#33

Yes…PLEASE explain how that model won “Best” in show…PLEASE, PLEASE…and then we can all get back to our great hobby, of MODEL RAILROADING, and having fun.

SOMEONE PLEASE…

#34

I did not attend the event, but have followed this thread with interest due to the number of fellow forum members that did attend, and some entered the contest. Going back through the posts I have the following commentary.

Craig posted a link to the AristoCraft forum thread on the ‘Rules’ which I will copy/clip to make it easier to follow my rant. The start is the posting of the ‘Prizes’.

Best of Show will be a $400 certificate for purchase of Aristo-Craft/Crest items … at the current discount pricing! Not MSRP as in the past.
For each category,

  • First Place - $250 certificate,
  • Second Place - $ 100 certificate,
  • Third Place $50 certificate.

It is my experience that as soon as money gets involved the trouble will soon follow. Oh, wait a minute, these are AristoCraft Certificates, only redeemable with AristoCraft. Hmmmm… No bias here… Prize listing followed by the ‘Categorys’.

2013 ECLSTS Model Contest
Categories:

Steam Locomotives - All types of locomotives powered by steam. The model must include an electric motor or other means of propulsion and be capable of operation on 45mm rails to be eligible for the category.
Diesel Locomotives - All types of locomotives powered by diesel (as commonly defined in the prototype). The model must include an electric motor or other means of propulsion and be capable of operation on 45mm rails to be eligible.
Self Propelled Units –Self-propelled MOW, Cranes, Track Cars, Snow Plows, Self-Propelled Passenger equipment, and Traction of all types. The model must include an electric motor or other means of self-propulsion and be capable of operation on 45mm rails to be eligible.
Rolling Stock – All rolling stock, non-self propelled. All types of Freight (including MOW, caboose and modern intermodal), passenger, MOW and “whimsical”. The model must include couplers and wheels and be capable of operation on 45mm rails to be eligible.
Buildings/Structures – All buildings and trackside structures
Dioramas – All dioramas

This seem relatively straight forward. Until you scroll through the thread and there are NO "Rules’ in the link provided, nor a link to the Rules. After doing some digging on the Aristo forum, I found the Rules posted as a PDF file, which can not be linked to here. Being as it is an open forum, I have posted a copy on my site linked here

http://www.gscalejunkie.com/GeneralPics/CatchAll/Info_Sheet_Model_Contest.pdf

for your reference. Here burried in the ‘Rules’ it states “6 Contest Catdgories will be judged by a team of five (5) judges selected by the sponsor…” . Lemme see…selected by sponsor…no indication of bias here.

Continued

#35

The question was directly asked if the ‘Best of Show’ winner was based on an Aristo product, still unanswered. Leaves not doubt in my mind.

Bruce posted on the Aristo forum commenting on the lack of integrity and was promplty brought to task for his comments. Bruce and others have commented and asked for justification for the choices made, with no response. Quoting Ralph B. “Their silence on the “issue” speaks volumes.”

Someone please explain to me ‘WHY’ anyone would wish to enter a competition knowing that the outcome will be skewed a certain way. As much as I am not a fan of NMRA in large scale, possibly adopting their judging criteria, or something close, for large scale events might not be a bad thing. Secondly, judges may not have any affiliation with the sponsor or vendors. This might be difficult in that even in the club I belong to there are the LGB fanatics and the Aristo fanatics, etc. Geoff R. commented on visitor voting for all but ‘Best of Show’, although I don’t believe the category winners are in dispute.

Alan, I agree with everything you have stated, however I have no idea how to ‘Fix it’. So long as there is financial involvement by an individual or group, they want preferential treatment for that commitment. You Alan may be the exception to this rule, but in my 6 decades on this planet, that is how it has been. Until the judging can be totally isolated and insulated from the sponsors it will not get ‘Fixed’.

KUDOs to all the winner here, and some that should have won. I’ll get off my soap box now…

Bob c.

#36

Since I had a dog in this show I feel compelled to add something here. My concerns about the contest results have always been with regard to the management of the contest and not the judging. I know at least two of the judges and have no problem with their capability to fairly judge entrants’ models. My honest opinion is that the overall judging was probably reasonable and that many of the winners deserved to win especially or own LSC people.

What I’ve been trying to say is that I truly believe that there was a mixup in properly identifying at least 2 entries by their assigned numbers. In this case the 2 entries that were mixed up just happened to be sitting next to each other. This, I think, led to the mistake in making at least one award and missing another.

Doc Watson

#37

Bob Cope said:

The question was directly asked if the ‘Best of Show’ winner was based on an Aristo product, still unanswered. Leaves not doubt in my mind.

Bruce posted on the Aristo forum commenting on the lack of integrity and was promplty brought to task for his comments. Bruce and others have commented and asked for justification for the choices made, with no response. Quoting Ralph B. “Their silence on the “issue” speaks volumes.”

Someone please explain to me ‘WHY’ anyone would wish to enter a competition knowing that the outcome will be skewed a certain way. As much as I am not a fan of NMRA in large scale, possibly adopting their judging criteria, or something close, for large scale events might not be a bad thing. Secondly, judges may not have any affiliation with the sponsor or vendors. This might be difficult in that even in the club I belong to there are the LGB fanatics and the Aristo fanatics, etc. Geoff R. commented on visitor voting for all but ‘Best of Show’, although I don’t believe the category winners are in dispute.

Alan, I agree with everything you have stated, however I have no idea how to ‘Fix it’. So long as there is financial involvement by an individual or group, they want preferential treatment for that commitment. You Alan may be the exception to this rule, but in my 6 decades on this planet, that is how it has been. Until the judging can be totally isolated and insulated from the sponsors it will not get ‘Fixed’.

KUDOs to all the winner here, and some that should have won. I’ll get off my soap box now…

Bob c.

Bob,

I think you summed up the questions and concerns quite nicely. I for one didn’t attend the show, even display a model, but it big unanswered question I asked earlier seems to be the key…

Craig

#38

I posted similar on the Aristo forum, let’s see if I can get tossed off there along side Bruce. :slight_smile:

#39

So you want the judges who volunteered their time at the show to explain their votes/ratings. We have an old saying in Boston: Good luck to you and the Boston Red Sox. The judges are supposed to be anonymous. Why not go to a jury and ask each and every member why they voted to convict or not convict someone and have them post it online using their names online. See where that gets you.

Let’s stop the “Aristo is the sponsor” and that’s why an entry that some people think might be based on an Aristo product is why it won. That’s a load of bull pucky and goes right in there with the conspiracy theorists who claim we didn’t land on the moon.

LAO

#40

Larry Otis said:

The judges are supposed to be anonymous. Why not go to a jury and ask each and every member why they voted to convict or not convict someone and have them post it online using their names online. See where that gets you.

Why are the judges anonymous? You’re not sending someone to jail.

I could understand not making the judges names available prior to the contest, to avoid lobbying, etc.

But keeping the judges anonymous afterward just adds to the distrust :wink:

Ralph