Large Scale Central

Does the gearing really not matter?

I am actually glad that I found the spec sheets for the 9000 series motor. They contain a wealth of information which makes the entire story much more transparent to me. I used the following additional data - the weight of the locomotive as just over 6 kg, the current at max voltage of 22 Volt when free running and when slipping, to be 2 Amp and 2.7 Amp respectively (we assume that we have ideal adhesion with friction coefficient equal one, that is we permit slipping when the load is greater than the weight of the locomotive - i.e. we are not using rack and pinion system which makes possible to pull loads greater than the locomotive weight). The resulting picture is as follows (these figures may be about 10-15% off because I only have specifications for the 24 V motor while K-27 apparently uses a 19 V motor). 1) For the stock K-27 locomotive at maximum voltage exercising maximum tractive force of 6kg (ideal adhesion) motor torque: 14.5 oz-in current draw: 2.8 Amp motor revs.: 3991 rpm heat dissip.: 22.9 Watt scale speed: 32.7 mph (52.6 km/h) At this condition the motor is used optimally, it delivers 43 Watts of its maximum 47 Watt maximum power. It cannot deliver any more on this locomotive without increasing the weight of the locomotive but it is very very close to the maximum and this is why it is optimally used. You can see what happens in these figures. I marked with colour rectangle the range of operation at max speed for all permissible loads. The motor works in its optimal regime on the upward slope of the power curve while not reaching the maximum.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/3099251143_eb1a88aa64_o.jpg)

  1. Now the same on a hypothetical locomotive with 1:29 gear ratio: motor torque: 7.5 oz-in current draw: 1.5 Amp motor revs.: 5025 rpm heat dissip.: 6.7 Watt scale speed: 20.6 mph (33.1 km/h) The motor can use at most only about 28 Watts of its available 47 Watts of power, you can see what happens in these plots. The regime of operation is sub-optimal in the sense that the motor will never even come close to using its full capacity. In other words, a cheaper considerably smaller motor could be used for this design (using 1:29 gear ratio).

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3075/3100116514_81b9d1ab3f_o.jpg)

Concluding, the design as available is optimal in the sense of utilising the motor capacity for the locomotive which it is supposed to move and pull the train which it is capable of pulling. In my opinion a design close to ideal. People who want to run it fast will be able to pull a maximum length train with the maximum speed of about 32.7 mph (52.6 km/h) Please note that the motor produces 22.9 Watts of heat at this maximum speed and pulling capacity condition which should be OK even without any cooling. Of course, if one wants to pull lighter trains and operate at lower speeds there is nothing to stop him/her from doing so with this design. In other words this design can be both enjoyed by people who want to run fast and heavy or light and those who want to run slow and heavy or light. On the other hand, the 1:29 design is sub-optimal in the sense that it involves a motor which only operates at a fraction of its capacity under maximum load at maximum voltage. In other words, for this design a weaker and therefore cheaper motor should be used, or a (much) heavier locomotive of course. This design is not capable of running fast - heavy or light. I am not interested in discussing who phoned whom, said what and when or whatever other fuzzy stories led to the current state of affairs - let’s leave this to model railroading historians;-)))… All I can see from the above, is that if there were suggestions to use 1:29 with 9000 series motor on a 6kg K-27 they were sub-optimal and mistaken, if a mistake happened which reverted this suggestion and coincidentally made use of a 1:14.5 gear ratio, that is fortune in misfortune, as we ended up with a near ideal design by pure chance;-)) this does not happen that often, so let’s celebrate and congratulate Bachmann!!! Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi

again from the yahoo group

Quote:
. . . Posted by: "dave funk" [email protected] dsfunk2 Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:41 am (PST) Stan, I delayed responding to you until I could run my K-27 on our clubs holiday display layout and compare the locos performance to other members locos. The K can pull a 12 car train consisting of various makers cars, all 1:20.3 scale. There was a lot of drag as the cars were not all free rolling and the load may actually been the equivalent of 15 - 16 cars. The loco was run on track power.The layout is a flat loop 20 x 70 feet. The K can pull the train but exhibited a bit of slippage on a fast start. When run with a 10 car train of free rolling cars it's top speed could rival that of the fastest Lionels!! The biggest difference I noticed is that I could find no other loco to double head with it as it ran so much faster than any other engine. My conclusion still remains the same... the loco is not geared properly for it's intended usage. It is relying too much on the motors torque or on DCC speed control to achieve acceptable low speed performance. It is my hope that the aftermarket will offer the correct gear sets so that an otherwise fine looking model will be able to run at it's best. I have to wonder... if this is such a fine gear ratio why is the new articulated going to equipped with 28:1 gearing ? I also wonder why there is so much "damage control/publicity spin" over the gearing in the K-27. I am not going to convert to DCC to "patch up" a gearing deficiency. I also won't be first in line to buy any more of Bachmann's new locomotive releases!!! . . .

The Bachman response:

Quote:
. . Re: Gearing in K27, question for the Bachman « Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 11:24:01 PM » Dear Cale, The Mallet uses a different motor, and it was felt that this was the best ratio for this model/ motor combination. Happy Holidays! the Bach-man . . .
see: http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,7221.msg62451.html#msg62451

So as I can tell Dave Funk’s objection in the post quoted above is

A: It runs too fast at top speed

B: that he can’t find another engine to double head it with in DC

I’m really still puzzled here. The first problem can be solved by turning it down, and as to the second, though I’m no expert I would not expect two dissimilar engines to double head well under DC. Do they ever? But it would double head perfectly with another K, I guess? Or if you were running on either DCC or battery/remote, you could adjust the speed of one to match the other. I really can’t see what the problem is in the post by Dave Funk. He never mentions any specific difficulties with low speed performance at all. What am I missing?

As to the second question, didn’t Zbigniew already address that?

As I said, I’m a real novice and I’m trying to make sense of this and educate myself.

Mike,

If the K runs as fast as the fastest Lionel at full throttle, that suggests, but does not prove, that it’s starting speed will be somewhere in the neighborhood of a conventional Lionel, as well. Put another way, it’s starting speed will probably be too fast for our tastes on straight DC because of a too tall gear box. It would be much the same as trying to start a big block Mustang in third gear to get out of the garage and driveway. It could be done, but at what cost to the paint job?

Steve Featherkile said:
Mike,

If the K runs as fast as the fastest Lionel at full throttle, that suggests, but does not prove, that it’s starting speed will be somewhere in the neighborhood of a conventional Lionel, as well. Put another way, it’s starting speed will probably be too fast for our tastes on straight DC because of a too tall gear box. It would be much the same as trying to start a big block Mustang in third gear to get out of the garage and driveway. It could be done, but at what cost to the paint job?


“Starting voltage forward was 1.2V; reverse 1.0V, both at .2A. Full slip on straight track, at 13.5V, drew 1.7A forward and 1.8A reverse. Full slip on a #1600 curve, running forward, was 2.1A. These reading were taken on old brass track, with shiny plating on the drivers. Drawbar pull was 2.5 pounds.”

Taken from Garden Railways Bachmann K-27 locomotive review
By Dave Goodson
Published: Saturday, February 23, 2008


Stan Ames
www.tttrains.com/sjrp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-0iUbSXl2s

Zubi,
all very nice laboratory findings, but how about a real world scenario. I would put as much faith in a manufacturer’s spec sheet as I would in a car maker’s EPA city/highway cycle results. If the motors were constructed to military/aviation specs, then there may be some commonality and repitition with results across the production line. However, as you say the specs are for a 24 volt motor (copyright 2001) and as the motor used for the B’mann loco is a ‘specially’ made motor just for Bachmann, then why not use the specs for that particular motor. Oh, I see, there are no specs released for the Pittman B’mann special. Therefore what credibility in your results?

   All students are told when making findings,  to show how they arrived at their conclusion.  You have simply provided a stock manufacturer's performance chart and provided answers.  At no point do you show how you arrived at your results.  You simply quote figures to suit your preconceived conclusion.
Tim Brien said:
Zubi, all very nice laboratory findings, but how about a real world scenario.
Isn't that the review that Stan Ames just posted?

I just re-read that review–it’s online for subscribers–and it doesn’t mention anything about the gearing being wrong or about poor low speed performance. I still don’t get it what’s going on here.

I’m sure that someone will corrected me if I’m wrong, but I do believe it was that review, or perhaps what was edited out of it, that was the beginning of the end of the relationship between Dave and Bachmann.

I’m too busy to go look up the site and the motor, but one thing significantly missing in the “review” is the disclaimers by Pittman which are all over the spec sheets. Many places say “this current can never be used/maintained… etc.”, I don’t remember the exact wording.

You NEVER run Pittmans near the max current (and thus wattage) because they will go up in smoke if you exceed it.

This is similar to running a car all day just under redline, because it is maximum efficiency… a few more rpm and boom… valve float…

If someone will provide the link to this motor on the pittman site, I’m pretty sure I can find the information that basically shows what I have said.

I feel that I am one of the few people on this thread who:

  1. Has a loco with a Pittman motor
  2. Has read the specs on his motor on the site
  3. Has exceeded the max continuous current rating on his motor (which I believe was .7 amps)
  4. Has actually overheated and melted down the insides of said motor.

I’m not proud of doing this, but it was an eye-opening experience to go to the Pittman site and see that these motors will “suck” a lot more current than they can handle for any length of time. You think everything is hunky-dory and then wham…

Regards, Greg

That’s gotta be why the lines on Zubi’s graph cross… as you add load and slow the motor down, the current climbs through the roof.

Matthew (OV)

Tim Brien said:
Zubi, all very nice laboratory findings, but how about a real world scenario. I would put as much faith in a manufacturer's spec sheet as I would in a car maker's EPA city/highway cycle results. If the motors were constructed to military/aviation specs, then there may be some commonality and repitition with results across the production line. However, as you say the specs are for a 24 volt motor (copyright 2001) and as the motor used for the B'mann loco is a 'specially' made motor just for Bachmann, then why not use the specs for that particular motor. Oh, I see, there are no specs released for the Pittman B'mann special. Therefore what credibility in your results?
   All students are told when making findings,  to show how they arrived at their conclusion.  You have simply provided a stock manufacturer's performance chart and provided answers.  At no point do you show how you arrived at your results.  You simply quote figures to suit your preconceived conclusion.</blockquote>

Tim, this is the real world scenario in that the values of the current are from Stan Ames experiment. I estimate the drag induced by the locomotive using the free running (or starting value) of 2 Amp at max voltage - this brings us to 1 Amp for double gear ratio. The top current at the point of slipping was estimated from the torque on the motor at max tractive effort possible - I used the weight of the locomotive provided by Stan Ames. This additional torque is halved on the double gear ratio. If you have better data please provide. One can easily measure and draw all these graphs from the actual motor used on the K-27. If someone could do that we could see more precise results but if the motor used is analogical to 24 V version they will not be very far off. This particular motor has been allegedly recommended to Bachmann to be used with the 1:29 gear box so if the actual K-27 has a very different motor you can at least understand why the recommendation was sub-optimal and should not have been used. I have no preconceived conclusions, you can verify the range of currents in the graph directly. All other values are calculated using elementary physics formulas such as Ohm’s law. You can also see and verify several values directly in the graph. I know what is required to illustrate a verifiable statement and I am not your student. Best, Zubi

Greg Elmassian said:
I'm too busy to go look up the site and the motor, but one thing significantly missing in the "review" is the disclaimers by Pittman which are all over the spec sheets. Many places say "this current can never be used/maintained... etc.", I don't remember the exact wording.

You NEVER run Pittmans near the max current (and thus wattage) because they will go up in smoke if you exceed it.


Greg, that is most likely why the fan was added. Max continuous torque is 6.1 oz-in without a heat sink, but a metal frame provides a heat sink - apparently not large enough. Best, Zubi

Matthew (OV) said:
That's gotta be why the lines on Zubi's graph cross.... as you add load and slow the motor down, the current climbs through the roof.

Matthew (OV)


Matthew, please note that you cannot add more load and slow the motor more than what I highlighted in the graph with a colour rectangle. This is still far off the point where the lines cross - you will never reach that point on your K unless you put a pen in the drivers that is;-))) Best, Zubi

Just to throw total confusion into the ranks…
What gear ratios are used on Other manufacturers’ electric powered, steam profile locomotives ? And…what motors are being used to accomplish their running successes/failures ?
I suppose we could start with Aristocraft, and Accucraft, for starters; taking into consideration their different styles of gearboxes, and overall drives.

The other question that could come out of this, is the question of why “They” seem to need two motors in some of the Deseasil drives…?

All I can read from all this “gnashing of teeth” is that Bmann would save themselves a whole world of hurt if they simply field tested there stupid prototypes for about 6 months before they authorize the final production runs, all this QA BS over a long line of the dam things…

Why do they allow themselves to get crucified like this? I dont see how they are going to maintain customer loyalty if every major new product is full of some controversy…we’re already anticipating what the heck will be wrong with the Mallet?

Maybe just maybe, given the bad economy, if B’mann holds off any brand new product offerings for '09, maybe they can take that year between and really go over there product with a fine tooth comb and square away these issues before they issue the next new beastie. Thats will go along way to re-establishing customer assurance.

:frowning:

Victor Smith said:
Maybe just maybe, given the bad economy, if B'mann holds off any brand new product offerings for '09, maybe they can take that year between and really go over there product with a fine tooth comb and square away these issues

:frowning:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Ralph

With the “Bad” economy, I’m of the opinion that we can look to see most manufacturers cut back BIG TIME, not move to more sensible testing, which would increase their costs.

Aristo has been known to be running close to a point that they can’t afford much debit, let alone a great inventory. B’mann has a bottom line too.

I expect that 2009 will see very little production, and less NEW product than anyone expects.
We might all stand back and watch for emergency sales of whatever product is available, which manufacturers may run in order to just pay their normal costs of staying in business.

It's starting to happen in all manufacturing across the globe, with the first signs being mass layoffs.......read your newspapers.....no not your local rag, in the lower 49.....read more newspapers that cover the news of the WORLD....you will soon see what is actually happening......it is hitting us all.

Actually the solution may be a bit different.

What say we get another manufacturer to build us a scale model of a locomotive everyone knows but no one has … there are obviously a bunch of choices (and I would really rather not debate them in this discussion!) Whatever it is, pick one, and make a finely scaled model of it from real measurements of the prototype, or scaled dimensions from detailed, accurate plans. Make the compromises necessary to allow the locomotive to navigate reasonably curved and inclined model track, without destroying the effort put into making an accurate scale model (YES, it’s possible, and has been successfully accomplished many times!) Equip it with a gearbox of such durability and performance as to provide a dependable, smoothly running, powerful operation, as tested and developed by someone like Barry who knows what he is doing, and not simply guessing or repeating what he thought he heard someplace. Provide adequate internal space for customer added electronics to connect to track pickups, motor, lights, and chuff cam, with clearly marked terminals that can be attached to without manufacturing special equipment to do so, and without needing to fabricate more components, cut traces, solder extra semiconductors into boards, etc. The locomotive should come with most of these things hooked up to the track pickups … but in such a way that disconnecting them is easily done.

I know I’d buy one.

Matthew (OV)

Matthew (OV)

Vic,
if B’mann actually did that, then there would be little to discuss on the forum. Oh, wait, we still have not resolved the Richter boys saga as yet, so always something to talk about.

 It seems, at least,  that B'mann 'listened to advice' and chose a better motor/gearbox combination for the mallet.  Is it a surprise that it is the combination that Barry has been using for years?  Tried and proven technology.