Large Scale Central

Divorce puts strain on families

General Discussion
#21

Steve,
those ‘attrocities’ never happened, as the Japanese history books seemed to have glossed over their not so perfect image that they try to portray. It is only the older soldiers and their victims, who are still living, who know what really happened. History is a wonderful thing. you simply leave out the bits you do not want to remember.

    I just saw a documentary on the Japanese legal system.  Most defence lawyers in Japan have never won a case against the Japanese prosecution.  It seems that they do not have a jury system and all evidence is presented before the court in written format,  with the judge the deciding factor.  Before the court has commenced the judge has already made up his mind as to guilt.  A person may be held for up to 23 days without being charged with a crime.  During that time he undergoes intense psychological interrogation until he 'voluntarily' admits his supposed guilt.  The guilty confession is then presented to the judge and the judge then makes his ruling.  In a Japanese court there is a greater than 99% chance that if you are charged,  then you will be found guilty (irrespective of the facts surrounding the case).  Witnesses are never called as all 'evidence' is presented by the prosecution in written format.  A new court style is being considered whereby six jurors sit up on the bench with the three judges and each juror is allowed to ask the defendant and witnesses, questions.  After questioning,  the judges and the witnesses go to a conference room where the judges 'guide' the decision making process.  Exactly what impact the six jurors would have on the decision making is minimal as the Japanese culture relegates their decision making to the authorities and it will still be the judges who make the final verdict.  Fortunately,  the Japanese make beautiful model trains as otherwise you would not talk to them.
#22
John Bouck said:
I'm not worried about warranties on my LGB. I just hope I can get a replacement motor or two if I need to. Had I any foresight I would have bought a few for spares. jb
JB

No problem getting Bühler motors! :wink:

#23

HJ,
Would they be available from some place like, say, Eastern Mountain Models.? :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

#24
Steve Featherkile said:
Hey, Zbig, I realize that you have to keep your adopted country happy, but lets not forget the Rape of Nanking, the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the sacking of Manila, and other atrocities committed by those who shall remain nameless.
Steve, of course the list is much, much longer, and unfortunately it keeps growing. I just listed a few instances which I thought you might not remember;-)... Thank you for adding Nanking and Manila. But I do not think that the bombing of Pearl Harbour classifies as state terrorism according to the definition provided in the earlier posting. This was an attack on a military installation. Pre-emptive strike one could refer to it, to secure oil supplies in the face of an imminent war. Hmm, that does sound somehow familiar, doesn't it? And it was a pretty stupid thing to do too... Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi PS which adopted country do you mean? Yes, I should list Rotterdam too... after all I am Dutch;-)) Can we now go back to the family business?
#25

Zubi,

I agree that it was primarily an attack on a military installation, though unprovoked and during a time of peace.

There were, however, quite a few bombs that the “Sons of Nippon” laid on the civilian population around Pearl.

In any case, I think the attack on Pearly Harbor qualifies as an act of state terrorism because it was:
a. unprovoked.
b. during a time of peace.
c. certainly achieved terror in the civilian population.
d. sought only to force the United States to sue for peace.

Just my 2 cents.

#26

And it didn’t work out quite like they planned.
Adolf found out about Boeing, as did Tojo.

#27

Steve, Thanks for the notes. The times were tense and I think the buildup to the war took a pretty long time. Well, I am not an expert, but I found this a very good read on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Events_leading_to_the_attack_on_Pearl_Harbor Best wishes, Zubi

Steve Featherkile said:
Zubi,

I agree that it was primarily an attack on a military installation, though unprovoked and during a time of peace.

There were, however, quite a few bombs that the “Sons of Nippon” laid on the civilian population around Pearl.

In any case, I think the attack on Pearly Harbor qualifies as an act of state terrorism because it was:
a. unprovoked.
b. during a time of peace.
c. certainly achieved terror in the civilian population.
d. sought only to force the United States to sue for peace.

Just my 2 cents.

#28

Lets see how this goes over…

I once got into a rather interesting ‘debate’ over my contention that there are literally millions of American and Japanese alive today who would have never been born, if the A-bomb had not been used and Operation Olympic (the invasion of Japan) had taken place.

If FDR had not authorizing the Manhattan Project or the project had been severly delayed or a failure, the Invasion of Japan would have become a necessity given the bullheadedness of the Japanese military, even up to the bitter end, most of the leadership remained deadset against surrender under any conditions, even if it ment the destruction of their nation. In fact after the surrender, many high command officials commited suicide.

Japan was as a nation a massive armed camp, by 1945 all factories destroyed by bombing, had been dispursed to individual homes necessitating the widespread carpet and firebombings to knock out this “cottage industry” of arms production, which the entire nation was geared towards this, women were being trained to fight with bamboo sticks, children were being trained to roll under tanks with explosive packs on their backs, and plans were underway to build hundreds of small motorboats packed with explosives, human torpedoes to destoy landing craft and enemy ships, after Okinawa every remaining airplane was held in reserve, to be loaded with explosives for final Kamakaze missions during the invasion. Remember the Islamist learned their technics from studying the Japanese.

Okinawa was considered a preview of what kind of resistance US troops could expect to recieve on landing on the main islands, the casualty rates among the Japanese troops was almost 100%, the civilian casuaty rate was also horrendous at almost 90%, with many hurling themselves off the cliffs to avoid capture, but also many were killed in murder-suicides by their own troops. All this forebode a terrible scortched-earth bloodbath if and when Olympic began.

US troops who won the war in Europe, found instead of going home they were to be shipped to the Pacific for the forthcoming invasion, moral dropped tremendously on hearing this. Planners on the US side were projecting that to sucessfully occupy Japan would cost 100,000 US troops their lives, and 1,000,000 Japanese dead with a similar casualty rate for civilians, and could possibly take as long as 3 bloody years.

But FDR did authorize the Manhattan Project, and the Trinity test did work, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed, thousand died, but remember many more died and greater damage was done in the repeated firebombings of Tokyo, Osaka and other cities than in either A-bomb shot. The A-bombs greatest effect was psychological on the leaders, particularly the Emporer Hirohito. When Hiroshima was bombed, the Japanese high command refused to consider surrender, even after the US issued notice that japan would be bombed one city after another until they did so ( a bluff, we only had enough to make 3 bombs including Trinity), they vowed to fight on the last man, woman and child, it wasnt until after Nagasaki was destroyed that Hirohito feared Tokyo was next, the notion of one plane-one bomb and that the US had hundred of B-29 planes its not hard to figure we had hundreds of these new bombs as well, Hirohito feared this and also greatly feared the end of the Imperial lineage, overruled his generals, and ordered the unconditional surrender of Japan, the fear of the bomb ended WW2.

In doing so, the bomb pre-empted the Olympic invasion, thousand of Americans and millions of Japanese are alive today, because their parents and grandparents were not killed in the invasion and occupaition of the Japanese mainland. Anyone who had relatives who fought in that theater and were slated to be in that battle on either side, should ponder their very existance, if the bomb had not been used, they might not have ever been born.

Anyway, thats my take on it, running for the fallout shelter now…:wink:

#29

Vic,

I think that you nailed it. I am here because of the Enola Gay and Boxcar.

#30

Victor, OK you asked for it;-) - necessary or not, these were acts of state terror in the light of the definition which I cited above. To make a long story short, I am also one who is grateful for freedom (and perhaps even life), but they taste somewhat bitter when I realise at what price they came. I am in no way more worthy of living than those people. Best wishes from Tokyo, Zubi
PS while we are having fun debating this terror stuff, the family’s got into a comma… http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LGBFamily/message/4349

#31

Zubi,

PS that was of short duration. OTOH one could debate what signifies a state of comma. :wink: :slight_smile: Somewhat similar to a “Happy meal”.

But did you notice that your friend bowed out?

#32

Pearl Harbour.

Hiroshima was not a separate act, bucko, rather revenge.

Oh, and it’s Bock’s Car.

#33

It’s real simple: If a nation doesn’t want to get nuked, they shouldn’t start an unprovoked war.

“Don’t start none, won’t be none!” – Will Smith, Men In Black

Besides, what difference does it make whether someone gets killed by a nuke or a conventional weapon? Dead is dead.

#34
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
...one could debate what signifies a state of comma. ;) :) Somewhat similar to a "Happy meal".
No, a Happy Meal puts the colon in a state! Followed by a long dash ...
#35

One needs to put history in perspective. Throughout the Second World War, the allies were aware of most of the impending German action, due ‘breaking’ of the Enigma Code. Likewise, for more than five years prior to Pearl Harbour, in December, 1941, America was privy to most of the high level communication within the Japanese Government. Was the American Government pre-advised to the attack on Pearl harbour? Considering their intelligence gained through spies in the Japanese Government, it is highly unlikely that the attack came as a surprise to the upper echelon of the American Government. The fact that they failed to advise the American population can be put down to what their primary intention was. On the day prior Pearl Harbour, 15% of males polled on America entering the war, were in favour of America entering the war. On the day after the attack, 100% of American males polled were in favour of involvement in the war and advised that they would enlist.

From September, 1939, America, though a neutral country, armed the British war effort and in effect stopped German victory, as the Dunkirk episode in 1940, showed the British, on their own, were not up to the task of achieving victory. Until December, 1941 and quite possibly after that date, German U-boats dropped off saboteurs on the American east coast to be employed in shipping ports and on railroads to sabotage the American effort to support Britain. There have been numerous acts of sabotage recorded in this time.

In the late 1930’s, America, possibly ‘fearful’ of the Japanese expansion into Manchuria, China and Korea, put in place trade restrictions to halt Japanese development, particularly in restricting oil exports to Japan and monetary freezes. This incensed the Japanese and could likely have been the reason for the attack on Pearl Harbour. Japan was attempting to flex some muscle in the Pacific and trying to cower America into lifting trade restrictions with Japan.

It has been conjectured that the American Government was forewarned of the attack on December 7th, 1941 and chose to ignore the warning. They had years of confidential intelligence information from their highly placed mole in the Japanese Governemnt (mid-30’s until December 7th, 1941) and ignored it. Now fast forward to September 11th, 2001. The American Government wanted to flex some muscle in the Middle East, but needed a reason to act (with Saddam Hussein their main objective. This is the ruthless dictator that they supported financially and with high level weapons in the Iraq/Iran War in the mid-80’s). Pearl Harbour was the flux that involved America in WW2 (was it premeditated?) and September 11 was the driving force to enable a campaign on terror. Was this also premeditated. If the Governemnt were able to sacrifice over 2000 American citizens in 1941, is it inconceivable that they would not ‘allow’ the twin towers attack for an altruistic gain? Look beyond what the purported facts are, as presented in the media and look to the potential gain for those in power. You do not even trust them with your tax dollars and yet it is the same people who are playing chess with your destiny.

#36

You watch too many Micheal Moore movies…:wink:

#37
Curmudgeon said:
Pearl Harbour. Hiroshima was not a separate act, bucko, rather revenge.
Curmee..., most acts of terror are not separate. 9/11 was not separate either - does this make it a lesser crime? Best wishes, Zubi
#38
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Zubi,

PS that was of short duration. OTOH one could debate what signifies a state of comma. :wink: :slight_smile: Somewhat similar to a “Happy meal”.

But did you notice that your friend bowed out?


Hans-Joerg, must have been a sudden lapse, but I expect we will see a gradual recovery…
Yes, I noticed Dave’s name is no longer there, I cannot blame him for that;-) I guess he has better things to do! Best wishes, Zubi

#39

Tim from my studies I’ve concluded:

That while the US did indeed know the attack was coming, even knew which day it was going to happen. They didnt know where it was going to happen, none of the decifered codes gave this crucial clue away so the Phillipeans was determined the strongest possibility due to its proximity to the Japanese homeland, US military presence, and the then current Japanese thrust into southeast Asia.

All overseas commands were warned on early Dec 7 east coast US time, but remember this was pre-satalite era communication where morse code radios and underseas telegraphs were the primary communication source being used. The main radio contact with Hawaii was ineffective due to atmosperic distortion so the military sent the coded warning to Hawaii via Western Union which had the best cable contact with the islands. This where the the Military term Snafu comes into play, the message was not marked Urgent so it wasnt given priority on transmission by WU or priority decoding when it arrived, so it didnt arrived at military HQ until after the attack began, and wasnt decoded until hours after the attack occured, no conspiracy, just a simple screw up that had huge repercussion, military history is full of such Snafu’s.

The fact that it was Pearl truely shocked the US high command that Japan could pull off such a masterfull sneak attack, and it was, one of the most daring and complete surprise attacks in military history. But the Japanese attack was in reality a serious failure. The Battleships sunk were already obsolete by modern terms, there main targets the US carriers were gone! The US carriers had been ordered to patrol possible Japanese attack routes if Pearl was under threat, but they were searching the western approaches that were considered the most logical attack direction, that the Japanese approached from the north, hidden behind a storm front, rewrote military stratigic planning.

The Japanese while doing tremendous damage to Hickam Field, failed to destroy the aviation fuel depots, same for the navies oil fuel depot, they also failed to destroy the dry dock, the pilots got so caught up in destroying aircraft and whatever ships were there at anchor that many forgot their primary targets and bombed these instead. Another failure was the mistake to not send in a second attack wave to take out these remaining targets, the Japanese commander got cold feet, and decided to withdraw lest face counterattack from aircraft remaining at Hickam or from the hidden Carriers or submarines that would now be searching for them. Pearl Harbor remained a functioning military base depite the bombing.

Yamamoto realized these shortcomings were potentially disasterous for Japan, before the attack he stated if successful “I can run wild in the Pacific for 6 months, after that I guarentee nothing.” after assessing the attack his comment “I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve” was prophetic.

Ironic that almost exactly six months later the US excirted revenge on the Japanese Navy which suffured its greatests losses at the Battle of Midway. Greater Irony that THIS time military intellegence figured out a way to determine WHERE the japanese attack would be by sending coded instructions to overseas bases to send back in their daily briefs false reports that the Japanese where religiously copying, reporting back to their high command,which were being monitored and translated by the US faster than the Japanese.

The “broken fresh water generator” inclusion in this daily traffic gave away to the US high command the Midway destination. The Japanese navy after Midway would be on the defensive for the rest of the war.

I wont debate whether "lend lease’ was “nuetral” it wasnt, but re-arming England was pulling the US out of the depression, so no one was going to fuss about it. It was very good for the US.

As for 9-11, I dont buy the conspiracy theories at all, theres much richer history of stupid Snafus, Fubars and just plain complete departmental ego/power struggle F***-ups has been shown to be at work there.

History has always shown that given Conspiracy vs Stupidity, stupid always wins.

#40

Vic,
excellent synopis on the attack. One thing that Murphy’s Law has taught us is if a f***up is possible, then, when humans are involved, it will happen.

 I heard a 'story' of radar operators observing a larger than usual object on their screens but were informed to ignore it.  The attack was the straw that drew America into the conflict.  Somehow,  I do not think that Japan was so pompous that they thought that involving America in the war would not impact on their own expansion plans.  It really seems like a poor strategic decision.  It definately would have been wiser to invade the Phillipines,  as the eventual attack on the Phillipines was indeed short lived and would not have inspired as much anger in the American population.   The western world up until late 1941 was prepared to sit back and watch Hirohito expand his empire,  much as the world stood back for around seven years as Hitler committed genocide and invaded surrounding countries in Europe.


 Thirty years ago I was removing old carpet in a previous house that I owned and stumbled upon old newspapers under the carpet.  This was a common thing as people could not afford underfelt and newspapers provided good insulating properties.  One newspaper was dated mid 1936.  A story in the paper was a quote from a British cabinet minister commenting on Hitler' activities.  He warned that Britain should start ramping up production to face an inevitable conflict with Germany.  Almost three years later to the day,  Britain declared war on Germany and was ill-equipped to face the enemy,  as they had not listened to that voice three years earlier advising that Herr Hitler (as he called him) was heading towards a war with Britain.  Yes,  history is full of 'what ifs?'. 


As regards conspiracy theories,  well the lack of emotion on 'dubya' Bush's face when told of the attack on the twin towers says it all.  I remember my initial reaction was one of disbelief and total shock.  I remember wandering around in a daze for several hours, my eye glued to the television,  not wanting to believe that it had occurred.   George Dubya was in front of a group of children when the 'aide' advised him of the attack.  His facial expression remained unaltered and he continued to face the children.  There was no shock or outrage.  there was no attempt to hustle off the president in his motorcade to reach safety.  First plane could have been conceived as an accident.  Second plane signalled an attack was happening and yet George dubya sat in front of those children for several minutes more.  His secret service agents should have hustled him out of the room immediately to safety.  Instead, apart from the presence of the aide advising him, no other secret service were visible.  They are trained to protect the president and do not await a signal from him when it comes to his protection.  It is instinctive in them to react.  Instead George just sat there.  Was he prewarned and expecting the outcome or was he so thick in the head that the reality of the situation did not occur to him?  We will never know what the aide told him.  Was he simply advising him of the attack or was he advising him that the attack was successful?  A conspiracy theory at least makes people think and not simply believe what their government tell them.

In 1942 (from memory) Japan invaded Rabaul in the Pacific. The Australian Government were advised that a Japanese invasion was imminent but because no support ships were available they were forced to abandon around 1400 Australian soldiers on Rabaul, ill-equipped and at the mercy of the invading Japanese. The Japanese accepted their surrender and bottled all the men into a Japanese freighter. As luck would have it an American submarine was patrolling off Rabaul, two days later and spotted the Japanese ship. It successfully sank the ship, not knowing its cargo was 1400 men headed for Japanese prison camps. The Australian Government, for reasons of morale, hid this sinking from the public and the families of the dead men were not informed until after Japan surrendedered over three years later. For three and a half years these families believed that there loved ones were interned in Japanese camps, not knowing of their deaths. I am always sceptical of anything my government and governments of other countries tell their people.