Large Scale Central

Deteriorating Buildings

Modeling
#1

I was redoing the pavement in my town yesterday and took a hard look at some of my older buildings. The gas station was my first scratch-built structure - I made it in 2002. Originally it was 1:24.

After a year or so, I swapped out the vehicles and people to make it look 1:20.

It looked like it could use a repaint and I wanted to swap out the concrete base for one made of PVC, as the concrete was deteriorating and getting ugly.

However, when I took a closer look, I found it to be in REALLY bad shape. I had used thin plywood when I made this, hoping that sealing it good would prevent any problems. That’s not the case.

All of the wood has rotted, and it’s just being held together by the Precision Products sheets. Oh well. The next one will be built with the foamed PVC board. One of my other buildings that looked like it could use some work was the Blue Moon Saloon. This was a kit, made out of concrete, so I was sure it would last! I made it in 2003, and it looked pretty neat to start with.

But, a few years ago, I had to bring it in as a lot of it had just chipped away. At that time, I replaced the concrete base with a PVC base.

I repaired the walls with Magic Sculpt and thought that would take care of it. However, it continues to chip away.

Not only that, but the joints are coming apart, and there’s a large crack in the other side. I really don’t want my buildings to look like they’ve been in a war zone and I’m afraid that this one is also beyond repair. So, some bad material to use for both of those buildings. Now I have to re-make them. :frowning: I’ll probably rebuild the gas station to look about the same, but it will be converted to use a 1:20 scale door - the other door was 1:24. Not sure how I’ll do the saloon; it’s really too small for 1:20 - it scales out at 12’ x 14’ - I’d like a bit larger building. I’ll be searching the internet for some prototypes.

#2

Bruce,

We deal in a real world setting. Although our structures are smaller in size, the weather they live in is no different than our homes we live in. The gas station, being a wood structure, like our homes requires maintenance. And due to the scale and the proximity to the ground (maintaining moisture) probably require more attention than our homes. Sheds, detached garages, garden sheds, etc. are full scale structures where I have seen considerable deterioration on the lower 12-18 inches of siding and the rest of the building seems to be OK. This is the area that receives not only the rain, but the splash from the rain as well, collecting dirt and debris that hold that moisture. Combine that with most garden railroad structures and in shady areas slowing the drying and deterioration is inevitable. Also consider that a 6 inch square spot of deterioration on a full scale garden shed is miniscule in proportion to the same physical area on our models. I purchased a stack of Garden Railways back issues from our host here, and reading through them was an article commenting that garden railroad structures needed additional care.

As for the Saloon, the concrete may have lasted better with a small aluminum flashing on the top of the walls. This would have prevented any water penetration into the concrete and eliminated any freeze thaw cycle cracks from begining in the top of the walls. Other than some real good quality sealer, I am not sure what could have been done for the ‘brick work’, as the mortar lined in scale make a great place for water to collect.

On another note, the models have stood up for a considerable time span considering how damaging Mother Nature can be. You commented that you will be building the replacements out of foamed PVC board. Even this material will deteriorate over time if not protected from UV. There are some real good UV retardant paints available, but even those have their limitations. The only real cure is not a cure, but a well planned maintenance schedule to inspect and repair before the damage is too far gone. We all have a ‘lazy streak’ as my dad would say, that is to say if we don’t obviously see the damage is isn’t there and therefore don’t go looking for it.

Good luck on the rebuilds, and I for one will be looking forward the the build threads as your model work is just SO GOOD.

Bob C.

#3

A modeler friend once told me, scale outside buildings live in a 1:1 environment so build accordingly. In 1:20 scale a rain drop is about the size of a five gallon bucket. Think of those pounding your home some evening in a good rain storm. But one thing he said that really stuck is a building weathers it’s age in it’s scale. Obviously this isn’t 100% true or accurate but it is a good rule of thumb for maintenance and the like.

Terry

#4

One thing that I have found very helpful when building with wood, especially plywood, is to treat it like a boat, and seal the wood with an epoxy, like MAS Epoxies or West System Epoxies. I understand that Ric Golding sells the West System.

Just seal the plywood with the resin and harder after construction, but before painting, and it will only require an occasional touch up of the paint. You can even make a paste with the resin and wood “flour” to fill holes and gaps in the plywood. Great stuff.

Yes, the resin is kind of spendy, but so is rebuilding your stuff every few years.

#5

Yea, A person would think that concrete structures would be bullet proof but unfortunately that is not the case.

That saloon looks like a Downtown Deco structure. They made a few large scale structures for garden railroading
the first ones were cast plaster and some of the later ones the cast concrete/cement. Needless to say the plaster ones didn’t go far.

JigStones was another seemingly bullet proof system. Doesn’t appear to be so as they slowly deteriorate and fall to pieces, at least in this climate.

Maybe if they were soaked in sealer once or twice a year they would last longer. But come to think about it we had one fella here do that and the sealer soaked in between the stones and released the glue and the structure came apart.

Rick

#6

Hmm… it’ll be interesting to see how long my structures hold up. I have some made of cement and stone, been wondering if I should coat them with a sealant or something. They do have hardware cloth and other reinforcements, and are built as a unit rather than gluing walls together, so those factors should help.

A lot of my buildings, and nearly all of the structural details on the rest, are styrene. So far they’re doing ok except for a few parts that I have learned need to be thicker or have more reinforcement. But I expect that eventually they’ll get brittle and start to crumble.

I have one building, a hoist house, that is corrugated aluminum over a frame of soldered brass. I’m guessing that one will outlast everything else. But I may have to replace the window frames and the door someday, as those parts are only styrene.

#7

Ray,
Rainfall and dampness seem to be the major enemies of the cement structures. I would think that in your climate that they would hold up rather well.
Rick

#8

I’m wondering if the issue is less rainfall and more freezing. Forgive my ignorance, but does it freeze in your location? Here next to the San Francisco Bay, it only gets below freezing once or twice a year, and only snows every 20 years or so.

#9

The only bullet proof system is to take the buildings inside when not in use. But what fun is that walking outside to a naked layout. Nothing is nicer then seeing my layout with the buildings covered in snow all lite up. What I try to do is in the fall, when the leaves start falling, I bring all my buildings in for maintenance. I water seal everything and fix anything that looks like it is coming apart or getting soft. By the toime the leaves are done the buildings go back out. Come spring ill inspect winter damage and fix anything major.

#10

Don’t feel alone there, Bruce. I had to build a whole new building for Berg’s Woodworking. It was built about 20 years ago, but had only been outside on the layout since I did the expansion for Hesperus. It was completely made of wood, and I thought I had sealed it pretty good with Varnish, but after a few years out in the weather, it looked pretty bad. Rather then try to fix it, I just built a new building out of coroplast and PP veneer. It was a plywood shell, with a wood clapboard siding veneer.

(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/rgseng/Rebuilt%20buildings/rebuild02.jpg)

(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/rgseng/Rebuilt%20buildings/rebuild03.jpg)

On the new building I made the loading dock a lot bigger and extended it around the side with a ramp.

(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/rgseng/Rebuilt%20buildings/rebuild04.jpg)

(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/rgseng/Rebuilt%20buildings/rebuild05.jpg)

Another building on the list is the saloon. It’s held up surprisingly well considering it’s also a wooden shell, but it had a Precision Products veneer on it and it’s been outside continuously since it was built. Here it is on my first layout:

(http://rgsgardenrailroad.com/Trn03.jpg)

That was back in the mid 90’s… On the present layout:

(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/rgseng/Rebuilt%20buildings/rebuild07.jpg)

(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/rgseng/Rebuilt%20buildings/rebuild08.jpg)

I guess you could file these under the “If I’d Only Known” category…

#11

I’m sorry, but I think the “chipped” & repaired Blue Moon Saloon, and Ken’s deteriorating buildings look great. I say keep em out there until they fall down, just like in the real world :slight_smile:

#12

I kinda like the looks of that Blue Moon Saloon meownself, but Bergs I had to do something about. The train crews were getting a bit apprehensive about spottin cars there.
And it wasn’t good publicity for a woodworking shop either…:wink:

#13

Thats not “age” its “patina” :wink:

#14

I made most of my building from clay that I fired at a high temperature. THey have held up well. My gas station I had made with wood and mastonite I had to rebuild, I used MDO signboard for parts of it and DiBond sign board for the roof, it is covered with crimped metal pieces It has held up well. I see someone sells clay buildings now in GR.

#15

Not to hijack Bruce’s thread, just a quick update on the saloon building.

(http://rgsgardenrailroad.com/2012/DJSaloon05.jpg)

(http://rgsgardenrailroad.com/2012/DJSaloon01.jpg)

(http://rgsgardenrailroad.com/2012/DJSaloon04.jpg)

It’ll have a porch on the 2nd floor with a railing and the sign on the railing. Next door is the sheriff’s office.

(http://rgsgardenrailroad.com/2012/DJSaloon03.jpg)

#16

Ken Brunt said:
Not to hijack Bruce’s thread, just a quick update on the saloon building.

(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/cabby/_forumfiles/hijack.gif)

#17

So much for keeping the patina of the old saloon Ken. But the new structure looks great.

#18

Dang, that looks nice, Ken.

I do like the look of wood, but not the way it lasts.

Though I do have a wood building planned. :wink:

As for the Blue Moon Saloon - it’s going to be replaced. First of all, it’s not the right scale. Second, I don’t think it’s worth fixing up. But, right now, it’s a shell occupying space in the town.

The gas station is going to be rebuilt in 1:20 scale - mostly I’m changing out the front door and lengthening the roof. :smiley: I’ll keep the original windows and gas pumps, but they have to be painted with a good exterior paint.

The original post was made to show people what doesn’t work outside.

From my experience:

  • plywood does not work at all. The gas station was built from thin aircraft plywood and sealed all around. Everything but the Precision Products sheets just rotted away. I had a similar experience with Miracle chair even though it was built with exterior grade plywood. In short, I will not use plywood again.
  • The concrete is questionable. I’m not sure what Blue Moon was made with but my stone mill has lasted much longer outside with no sign of deterioration. It was made from Quikrete.
  • UV breaks down all sorts of things. You need to have a good exterior paint to deal with this. Note that the model paints, such as Floquil, do NOT hold up very well outside. I doubt that they offer any sort of UV protection and the color quickly changes to something else than the original. I’ve had very good luck with Rustoleum, Krylon, and the exterior paint samples from Home Depot.
#19

I have to agree. Plywood doesn’t work. There are some woods that will hold up well. The coal tipple has been outside for 15 years or so, but it’s built from Redwood. Chandler’s seems to be holding up well, too, but it’s built from Spanish Cedar, which I use for ties on my switches. The Engine House has a strip of redwood along the bottom, but the rest is 3/4" PT plywood and so far it’s still in good shape. Russel’s garage is wood, but I’m not sure which kind (probably plain old white pine). My Dad built that many moons ago as a Blacksmith shop, but it’s been rebuilt since then a few years ago, but it will need replacing eventually.
I have used the the 1" foam insulation board as a shell for some small buildings. With the Precision Products veneer over them they’ve held up good. The exposed foam I’ve tried using as platforms and loading docks, but the UV breaks them down, even when painted.

As for paint, I started buying the samples when I was building the new stations. Valspar, the brand Lowe’s sells, seems to hold up well, both in spray cans and as paint samples. Olympic is another brand of paint sample I use. I’ve used many different kinds of paint over the years, mainly left over stuff from painting other things, both interior and exterior, and both appear to hold up pretty good outside. But, like any building that’s out in the weather, they still need maintenance every couple of years. (But, hey, what else do you have to do during the winter…:wink: )

Quote:
So much for keeping the patina of the old saloon Ken. But the new structure looks great.
I'm sure that patina will return after a few years outside.
#20

Jack Verducci, in his book Building Structures For Your Garden Railroad, says that plywood holds up well, as long as it is covered up completely and protected from the weather.

I’ve had folks at the lumber yard say that it is UV that destroys plywood, not water. Of course, that applies only to exterior grade or PT plywood. Water will melt the glue used in interior grade plywood and cause it to delaminate.