Large Scale Central

Deteriorating Buildings

Modeling
#21
Steve Featherkile said:
Jack Verducci, in his book [u] Building Structures For Your Garden Railroad[/u], says that plywood holds up well, as long as it is covered up completely and protected from the weather.
Translation: You can build garden structures from plywood as long as your garden is indoors.... (???):( :rolleyes:

Sounds like: “Yes, darling child, you may go for a swim, but don’t go near the water…” :stuck_out_tongue: :rolleyes:

I avoid all glues and coatings. This includes plywood and other wood compounds. :cool:

FWIW I use straight wood, unpainted, with mechanical fastners or joints. Period. Let it all weather au naturel. Different woods for different elements give contrast. Works for me. Oops, signs may be painted, & sometimes I’ll break down and add a touch of trim colour, a stain that soaks in, though, not a coating that eventually breaks down or flakes off.

Avoid UV fading by using earth tones: Sienna, umber, ochre. Also Titanium, Carbon black. Acrylics watered down soak in like stain then turn plastic in there, highly adhesive, and near-permanent results. Polycarbonate plastic sheets are UV resistant, BTW. You can use it for roofs. Also UV resistant: Parrafin wax: coat a sign, for example with it and see how long it lasts. You might want to re-coat occasionally, won’t hurt… This stuff has protected and waterproofed military tents etc made of cotton for generations.

Wood endgrain especially acts like a wick. Elevate bldgs off moist ground by giving them tiny rubber or metal feet - 1/8" is plenty, and placing bldgs on concrete or stone pads. If wood is in contact with the concrete or stone one layer is insufficient. Place one stone on ground, a second on that, then yr wood. Those little feet make single layer of stone/concrete OK. :cool:

Concrete buildings show promise. They can of course go straight on ground, AND won’t blow away! Buddy up here has wife who makes them for him, lucky guy!

…She’s a good cook, too… :smiley:

#22

John, by protected from the weather, Jack means that the plywood is protected, not the building. He leaves his building out 24/7/365 in the San Francisco Bay area, where is gets a certain amount of weather. They have 3 seasons there, August, September and Rain. :lol:

#23

I thought Jack used marine plywood?

#24

Well, this one was built with exterior grade plywood…and protected by Precision Products sheets. Set on a base. It didn’t stop the rotting of the plywood one bit.

(http://jbrr.com/Pics/Structures/MiracleChair/End/IMG_9009.JPG)

OK. Maybe one bit. It might have rotted more if not covered. :wink: Of course I don’t live in the San Francisco Bay area, so maybe that’s the difference?

#25

Nice “patina”!!

#26

@ Bruce. I keep telling you, you don’t hold yer jaw right when you build those things. :slight_smile:

#27

Further reading of Jack’s book, he now recommends cast resin for his buildings.

Still, plywood is used for 1:1 buildings, and they last a long time. What are we missing?

#28
Steve Featherkile said:
Further reading of Jack's book, he now recommends cast resin for his buildings.

Still, plywood is used for 1:1 buildings, and they last a long time. What are we missing?


Further off the ground? Think about how big a real foundation is above the ground… Fence boards normally rot from the bottom up as well. Could that be a similar comparison?
Now think about that scaled down (maybe 1/2" at the most?) so water has an easier time splashing up from the bottom. I’ve noticed in all these pictures of buildings gone bad, it’s normally the lower 1/2 of the building. It would be interesting to compare say Bruce’s buildings (built of plywood and placed near the earth) versus the buildings of the POC where the benchwork is raised up, and off the ground. Would there be any difference if the same construction techniques were used? I thinking same climate, construction etc for an equal test. In other words would it be better or worse to have buildings directly on the ground (with a scale foundation) or on a raised benchwork (with the same scale foundation)???

Craig

#29
Steve Featherkile said:
Further reading of Jack's book, he now recommends cast resin for his buildings.

Still, plywood is used for 1:1 buildings, and they last a long time. What are we missing?


How about scale rainfall. How dry would your house be if the average rainfall per storm was a foot or more?

#30

I wonder if it would help to use some sort of foundation. Although my gas station was on concrete, so not sure if that would help.

It won’t be a problem for me anymore, as I no longer have any plywood buildings.

I’ll let someone else do the experimenting… :wink:

#31

I think what is missing is that everyone is forgetting that if you observe prototype structures the highest level of water damage is on the bottom 12-18" of the walls of the building. This is the area where all the splash, mud and debris collect and hold the moisture. Unfortunately this does not scale, therefore the building itself becomes the wet spot. Combine this with the fact that most outdoor railroads are routed through ‘gardens’ where we put ‘mulch’ to assist in maintaining moisture for the growing things. Do the modelers who place their structures on a gravel bed have the same problem? Maybe to a lesser extent, but I would suspect they still experience deterioration.

My thoughts would be:

Place structures on a concrete foundation, preferable made to order where the ‘sidewalk’ pitches away from the building. If possible raise the building on a scale ‘foundation’.

Use high quality exterior enamel paints for the buildings and make sure to seal inside and outside surfaces…

A bead of silicon caulk around the bottom outside edge to eliminate water wicking up into the structure from the bottom would help.

As a final thought, although a bit extreme, I had considered adding the mesh screening they use at Lowes or HD in the garden area to break the strung sunlight. I thought it would serve two purposes. First it would obviously perform the purpose for which it was intended. The second would be to break up those 5 gallon bucket size raindrops mentioned earlier.

From my FWIW dept.

Bob C.

#32
Craig Townsend said:
Steve Featherkile said:
Further reading of Jack's book, he now recommends cast resin for his buildings.

Still, plywood is used for 1:1 buildings, and they last a long time. What are we missing?


Further off the ground? Think about how big a real foundation is above the ground… Fence boards normally rot from the bottom up as well. Could that be a similar comparison?
Now think about that scaled down (maybe 1/2" at the most?) so water has an easier time splashing up from the bottom. I’ve noticed in all these pictures of buildings gone bad, it’s normally the lower 1/2 of the building. It would be interesting to compare say Bruce’s buildings (built of plywood and placed near the earth) versus the buildings of the POC where the benchwork is raised up, and off the ground. Would there be any difference if the same construction techniques were used? I thinking same climate, construction etc for an equal test. In other words would it be better or worse to have buildings directly on the ground (with a scale foundation) or on a raised benchwork (with the same scale foundation)???

Craig


[b]I waited to comment here as I was intending to take some photos of buildings on the POC that need maintenance. A bout with the gout has kept me indoors however and if I wait much longer this thread will be done. So…

Craig has definitely hit on one of the major causes of deterioration, earth contact. I have had almost no trouble with rotting on the raised environment of the POC’s bench work. While the structures get mighty wet the moisture drains off giving things a chance to dry off. That doesn’t mean of course that I could use balsa wood or cardboard structures. Virtually every wooden building component utilizes a good grade cedar or redwood (when I have it). Most everything is also painted with a good primer (I use mostly Bondo) both inside and out or clear coated in the case of decking or unpainted fences.

The single biggest cause of damage with the wood has been expansion causing glued joints to fail. There are several things that cause this besides wood’s natural tendency to expand and contract. Here, sunlight seems to be the biggest culprit with changing heat and cold but moisture seeping behind applied siding and trim also can cause mischief. Freezing that seeped in moisture would I think make it even worse but that’s not much of a factor here. I believe that foundations would definitely help but still, being close to the ground, moisture would continue to be some problem as the ground, especially garden soil, holds moisture for a long time and evaporation keeps everything moist close to the ground. In any event there is going to be some damage to structures left outside whatever we do.

I think I have an idea that will possibly help the “ground dwellers” amongst us. As on an elevated railroad it won’t end deterioration but might slow it down quite a bit…

Most people think of bench work as a raised environment ranging from knee high to maybe chest high but this ain’t necessarily so. A ground level railroad can have some of the advantages of bench work without really being raised much at all. Just think outside the box a bit. I’ve mentioned a bit of this idea before to a rousing chorus of “ho-hums” but let me elaborate a bit.

First imagine the area on your railroad where towns and structures are to be located (could be the whole RR or just part(s)) leveled off or on a slight slope and a very low, level PT grid of 2x4’s attached to 4x4 legs about 3 to 4 inches off the ground. The top could be layered with hardware cloth and landscape fabric as on the POC or your own concoction. The area itself beneath would need to be well drained possibly with a layer of pea gravel or other stone spread to a few inches depth. Everything in this area would be mounted to the grid; buildings, track work, scenic effects, etc. Any track here would need support as just laying on the covered hardware cloth could result in a roller coaster effect. :slight_smile:

Raised bench work provides naturally for air circulation and this would be more important for very low bench work. Along two or more edges you’d need vents of some sort to allow air to circulate beneath. These vents could be disguised within retaining walls or cribbing along parts of the edge and the actual openings made to look like culverts. These components need not be wood but can be stone, concrete, etc., if wished or a combination just for looks. The rest of the platform would be graded up and into the surrounding terrain to look as little more than a slight rise in the landscape. If done properly you’ll never know there’s any bench work there and the whole scene will blend in with the surroundings.

Of course it is crucial that the ground beneath be well drained; no standing water. Also make sure it’s not in a direct line with water used to constantly irrigate a garden that would make for constant moisture. The hefty PT grid should last for years thus the seeming “over build”. This is not the place to get cheap.

An additional advantage for windy locations is that any structures can be secured to the grid and will no longer be blown around at the whim of nature.

This I’m sure would not be a cure all for the woes of aging structures but I think might be a possible aid worthy of consideration and quite easy to implement. [/b]

#33

I don’t know what you guys are complaining about. Your always trying to make things look run down. But when mother nature does it for you you complain. :slight_smile:
I know the same thing happens to me to.

#34

I’m with Richard on this one with an exception. I am not convinced the short benchwork would be the best asthetically, the ability to drain water on a 1:1 scale is the way to go. A french drain, even leach rock under pea gravel, would get water out of there pretty quickly, assuming you could provide it a place to go. I am in Southern AZ, and build everything out of the coroplast, so am not really concerned with rot.

#35
Quote:
... Craig has definitely hit on one of the major causes of deterioration, earth contact.
Hmm, on my railroad of late, it's been "kid contact." I'm open to solutions, with the condition that none should involve Child Protective Services being called to the house.

Later,

K

#36
Kevin Strong said:
Quote:
... Craig has definitely hit on one of the major causes of deterioration, earth contact.
Hmm, on my railroad of late, it's been "kid contact." I'm open to solutions, with the condition that none should involve Child Protective Services being called to the house.

Later,

K


Kevin,

Welcome to that part of life. Over all it goes quickly and the memories your kids are building is worth everything you are sacrificing. I would think a good source for you would be to talk to your Dad and see how he handled it.

:wink:

Grandpa’s are usually pretty protective of criticism of their grandkids, so be careful.

My problem was always soccer balls, footballs and bb guns. My reward is my son and daughter now complaining about their own kids. It works.

#37
Ric Golding said:
Kevin Strong said:
Quote:
... Craig has definitely hit on one of the major causes of deterioration, earth contact.
Hmm, on my railroad of late, it's been "kid contact." I'm open to solutions, with the condition that none should involve Child Protective Services being called to the house.

Later,

K


Kevin,

Welcome to that part of life. Over all it goes quickly and the memories your kids are building is worth everything you are sacrificing. I would think a good source for you would be to talk to your Dad and see how he handled it.

:wink:

Grandpa’s are usually pretty protective of criticism of their grandkids, so be careful.

My problem was always soccer balls, footballs and bb guns. My reward is my son and daughter now complaining about their own kids. It works.


I’ll have to second that one…:wink:

#38

Kevin, I am fortunate enough to have enough real estate so the kids are not playing sports around the layout, but still considered the cost and time spent on building knowing that accidents happen. I also rarely leave buildings out for any real length of time because of the kid factor. Mine mind well, but unsupervised a 5 year olds curiosity will make them do something that will later be denied. I would rather not feel terrible about a building with alot of hours in building it, and $$ spent. It is still pretty easy to come up with a standoff scale building with enough detail to be convincing for under 30 bucks.

#39
Ric Golding said:
Kevin Strong said:
Quote:
... Craig has definitely hit on one of the major causes of deterioration, earth contact.
Hmm, on my railroad of late, it's been "kid contact." I'm open to solutions, with the condition that none should involve Child Protective Services being called to the house.

Later,

K


Kevin,

Welcome to that part of life. Over all it goes quickly and the memories your kids are building is worth everything you are sacrificing. I would think a good source for you would be to talk to your Dad and see how he handled it.

:wink:

Grandpa’s are usually pretty protective of criticism of their grandkids, so be careful.

My problem was always soccer balls, footballs and bb guns. My reward is my son and daughter now complaining about their own kids. It works.


I visited my son over Father’s Day weekend. At 0200, I heard him singing my favorite 2 AM lullaby, “Someday you’re gonna have children.”

You bet it works!

#40

There’s a prototype for everything… even deteriorated buildings.

We looked at this place yesterday. The photos just don’t do it justice, it’s MUCH worse in person…
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/707-Wayne-Ave-Ellwood-City-PA-16117/86492738_zpid/

And it isn’t even a crack house