David Russell said:
Korm…even though we didn’t see eye to eye on modeling tastes we did see eye to eye on what can be done with materials on hand. I thank you for your posts/pictures as they were always very interesting (to me anyway) and I don’t do any other train forums.
LIAR I see your picture on a lot of post in the KFC forum!!!
Oops nevermind you said train forums, my bad… lol
Gad, I’m gone for the day working on the railroad and I read the forum and feel like World War III broke out! Behave ALL of you and go work on your layouts! You will feel better!
I hope everyone has reread Bob’s Old policy statement of Oct 10, 2012 sticky in detail. I support it 100% and would add that it is best to keep reply’s to posts friendly and ON TOPIC. The original poster should be respected if asking a question or commenting about a situation without concern that he or she will be hijacked, or trashed with a ton of off topic venom and know it all stuff that does really apply to the original post.
A problem with a product should be matter of fact and “fix” related, not a continuous rehash and bash of the manufacturer on the same issue over and over again. Folks can form their own opinion about a product without all the hate venom and vote with their dollars not to buy a product, without the noise of know it alls.
If a newbee buys an $750 locomotive and asks as question about the electrical aspects of it and gets a response that says something to the effect “That loco isn’t worth a darn, and you have to gut out all the wiring and do this or that, because I know for a fact that it is the only way to do it”, how do do you thinks that person feels about our hobby?? If a fight begins between several people on that same thread that there way is best that only makes it worse. Our scale is small enough as it is, and we should not be putting off folks. There are a lot of folks still registered on this site who have made only one or two posts and never bothered to make another because of the intimidation. I know for a fact others feel the same as I do.
It is my hope that Bob will start to enforce that policy and hopefully keep posts On Topic. I also feel we should promote the hobby not tear it down.
Let’s start with the obvious - most of the recent postings regarding “bashing, bickering and flaming” center on the postings of a very small group of contributors. But this same group happens to be the most knowledgeable among us. And most of them are in the hobby business so their interests in the hobby run a lot deeper than they do for the rest of us. To us the hobby is just that, a hobby. There are also a few others who don’t appear to have any commercial involvement with the hobby but who seem to share the opinions of the select few either out of true conviction or because they want to be associated with the “big guys”.
It seems to me that the problem with the offending posts is not so much “content” as it is the way it’s presented. Too often the experts who respond do so in a very condescending and rude way. For instance, if someone new to the hobby writes in that he likes a certain brand but he’d appreciate advice before buying it, most of us will usually respond in good faith and offer our opinion based on our own experience. But many of the “experts” will respond with tirades of negativity not only about the product but about the company and it’s executives. And too often they will attack others who respond with abuse for being “cool-aid drinkers, faithful followers, sheep”, etc, etc, etc. In other words, we’re morons who are being lead around by our noses by the unscrupulous owners of the offending company. And if we try to defend ourselves, the self appointed protectors of the hobby come after us with so much vitriol and incoherent babble that most of us just give up.
The bottom line is that we all should think not only about the facts of our postings but also about how they will be received by the other members - a great example of the old saying " do unto others as … "
Walt
Thank You Walt. Very succinct. 
“It is better to remain silent and be thought the fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.”
Amazing. People agree with the sentiment, but the thread goes on for another page or two.
Maybe this quote should be at the top of ALL threads.
Doug, I agree!!!
i suppose i will go out and run my out of scale LGB Amtrak train, maybe slap an Aristo diesel on the point to assist.
I personally have learned quite a bit from everyone. lets just remember, this is a hobby.
Several times now I have hinted at the changing demographic of this site. Many ‘new’ names are now posting who are actually new members or are old members who by choice have had very limited postings on this site, preferring the ‘shelter’ of a heavily moderated manufacturer site.
They return to this site to see a forum behaviour very opposite to that sheltered environement they preferred. Given that the manufacturer site would continue then highly likely they would not be posting here.
This site had at one time an attraction and that was the way in which members interacted with each other. An outsider may have seen it as alien to that behaviour they experienced on other sheltered sites. At one time the forum rules advised that a ‘thick skin’ may be needed when posting here. The forum in the main was self moderated with little intervention from the site administrator. The rules of late have changed perhaps reflecting the new demographic. Those with tender temperments are winning the day and changing the face of this site.
The old stalwarts who were the basic fabric of this site, who have always been around and ACTIVE on the site are now dinosaurs or demigods or schoolyard bullies in the eyes of some. The attraction of this site for those who supported this site for years has been eroded by the newcomers or those older members who chose the protection of other ‘family’ sites rather than expose their views on this site to be tested in a real public atmosphere, not one strictly moderated.
I have no allegiance to a personal hobby related business but reserve the right to express a view as do others who may see this hobby purely for its enjoyment value. One member erroneously accuses ‘the other side’ of unjustifiably criticising a newcomer’s choice of manufacturer or his latest purchase by condemming him as a moron for his choice. I challenge that member to back up his unstabstantiated sycophantic statement. One thing the ‘other side’ has done is document the faults and untruths of most major manufacturers. They have dedicated their time so that a repository of information exists free of charge for those willing to read it. George Shreyer is regarded as the guru of largescale and even though he criticised mmanufacturers he was never accused of bashing. We have two standards in play here. When a guru criticises it is a criticism, but when some one who has a long history in the hobby criticises the same product it is BASHING. If some one ignores the good advice of those who have put their case in forums and personal websites and a purchaser ignores their good advice foolhardily then perhaps he is a moron. However, when he realises his mistake, does he go to the manufacturer for repair info or to vent his frustration? No he turns to those with the history of providing fixes for their new purchase. They seek advice while at the same time biting the hand that helps them.
Mark my words, the attraction which adhered many stalwarts to this site, the very fabric of this site, will lose the attraction to post here. Some will say good riddance we do not need them, let them go and start their own site. However, these members formed the backbone that allowed this site to continue for many years. A site is only as good as its member base. When that member base erodes away to be replaced by an entire new demographic from a sheltered manufacturer site, then the site character changes as well. This is good for the new immigrants to the site as they feel at home, warm cosy and sheltered from the big bad world. At present there is a concerted effort on the part of some to erode the stalwarts from the site or to modifty their attitudes through site moderation to make the site more ‘family’ friendly. Will this site become a heavily moderated pseudo manufacturer site or perhaps a Mc Moron Yahoo family site that had all postings vetted by a distinctly biassed moderator?
A site is only as good as its experienced knowledgable participants. Yes, some of those knowledgable members are ourtspoken, but then nothing gets accomplished by sitting on your hands and keeping your mouth shut. Simply wishing something to happen does not make it happen. It takes a few cracked eggs to make a cake. For those newcomers or those old members returning to this site who are intent on making this site more family friendly. like the site they came from then enjoy it but if you still want the information always available then do not kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Some ‘militants’ are hellbent on changing this site demographic. To date this site has proven itself as a quiet achiever. It did not have the backing of a manufacturer or big sponsorship dollars that impacted on how the site was moderated. The moderator was free to moderate the site for the good of its members.
I will continue to post on this site to the disdain of many, assuming I still have those privileges in the future, but the changing demographic of the site will impact severely on the demeanour of this site as an influx of ‘dogooders’ will inevitably spread like a cancer or dissuade those stalwarts from further posting. I have a vision of the three wise monkeys, hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil. But then the three wise monkeys are brass immovable objects. Exactly how a brass sculpture is going to help us achieve change for good in this hobby is beyond me. Dissent was not allowed on that manufacturer site and thus speaking of any defect was termed bashing and strictly not allowed or those who had the audacity of expressing an opinion contrary to the ‘written word’ were termed ‘bashers’ and thus outcasts. If this is the type of site you want to create then good luck to you but it will be a very sterile environment.
One member of late has taken up a campaign against bullying. The following is a definition history of the word ‘sychophant’ taken from Wikipedia. Note the use of ‘unjustified prosecutions’. This member has taken a holier than thou approach forgetting that it is he himself who has been instrumental in bullying others on this site. Perhaps he should revisit his recent postings and read them from a more sensible, less personal perspective.
" The word sycophant has its origin in the legal system of Classical Athens. Having no police force and a limited number of officially appointed public prosecutors, most legal cases were brought by private litigants. By the 5th Century, BC, however, this practice had given rise to abuse by litigants who brought unjustified prosecutions. Such a litigant was called a “sycophant”.[
ZZZZZZZZZZZ
walter sarapa said:
… There are also a few others who don’t appear to have any commercial involvement with the hobby but who seem to share the opinions of the select few either out of true conviction or because they want to be associated with the “big guys”…
Walter,
you pretend to seek harmony in your posting and yet from the outset you denigrate those whom you obviously have a disdain for. Perhaps they do not share your homogenous view on the hobby.You denigrate those who speak out as having “commercial interests” in doing so or as clingons who stick to the “big guys” to seek perhaps their attention and possibly ‘glory’ or perhaps notoriety. Yes, I am one of those rare few who have a “true conviction”. I posted on the manufacturer site many years ago and had the audacity to speak out. At the time other than Greg, no other “big guy” on this site posted on that other site. I brought my conviction to this site many, many years ago, disillusioned with the strict moderation and syncophantism on the other site (modern interpretation of the term “syncophant” - insincere flatterer).
If you had regularly posted on this site for many years then you would have quickly seen my dedication to improving the hobby. My views coincided with those of the supposed “big guys” that you so cheerfully denigrate. My views have always been expressed in a verbose manner rather than the short Twitter type comments or punctuation marks (both of which contravene the moderator’s rules by the way). I do not denigrate others in a rude or obscene manner as I am an educated person who has the ability to form more than one sentence in a posting response, an ability that seems alien to some who post on this site.
I have the utmost repect for those ‘big guys’ that you denigrate as having ‘commercial interests’. I was drawn to them by their outspokedness and their endearing charm as true characters, not some hollow shell of a person who hides behind their disdain of others. As a force those ‘big guys’ have helped keep this site operating as no matter what you may think of them they are icons in this hobby. Perhaps you are a little jealous of their notoriety. They have long fought to help improve the hobby by educating manufacturers in better manufacturing and quality control measures and in educating us the consumer, the hobbyist. They took no commercial gain from their endeavours. Some took their advice on while others ridiculed and banned them from their sites.
I believe that one member while banned from their site was instrumental in helping the manufacturer to establish a set of wheel/gauge standards, which alas the company ignored and released a locomotive that after a five year gestation period had trouble keeping to the rails. I also was personally approached by the company to help improve their trackwork, a task that I took on gratefully and am appreciative of. I sought nor gained no compensation for this task as I already had purchased all the track that I would ever need. I was simply grateful to be able to assist. As with the other member, the bulk of my advice was ignored for manufacturing/economic expediency. Another member you cheerfully denigrate was a factory consultant for many years until it seemed his helpful advice was no longer deemed necessary and his services dispensed with. If you wish to denigrate someone for 'commercial interests" then look further into the history of this company.
There is a saying, the squeeky hinge gets the most oil. One ignores a hinge that makes no noise, preferring instead to quieten the ‘noisey’ hinge with a liberal application of lubricant. Similarly, if one does not raise their voice then they are ignored.
I do hope you enjoy the new paradign demographic of this site and the direction you and others are pushing it. But not for the “big guys” involvment over many years of REGULAR posting, you may not have a site to return to after your recent prodigal return.
Pomposity, bombast, innuendo, invective, insult, ignorance, paucity, false premise, untruth, opinion, venom and pretention are always a problem when people attempt to engage in rational discourse. This thread has its share of the aforementioned problems. Rational discourse relies on facts, organization, coherence with no emotional tone involved. Cordiality and civility in prose are also a must to prevent misunderstanding and its attendant issues.
Several other threads on this forum have been subject to the same faults noted in the previous paragraph. The level of conduct by adults involved in this thread and others on this forum constantly amazes me. Simple civility is often ignored. Cordiality is also a victim. These errors in conduct are at best shameful and at worst should be subject to censure. Needless to say the problems noted are rife.
I admire the restraint and tolerance exhibited by the owner and moderator of this forum. He has set forth rules of conduct that are skirted at the least whim. The man is doing the members of this forum a considerable service by having available to anyone wishing to participate a place to exchange information about a common interest for all those wishing to be involved in meaningful, useful intercourse. His sensibilities are regularly tested by the membership.
Everyone please act more cordially and civilly when engaged in activity on this forum.
Respectfully,
NYC Buff
“the more I know about people, the better I like my dogs.”
― Mark Twain
“So it goes.”
— Kurt Vonnegut
Sorry, no illustrated versions. Imagination should serve well enough!
Joe, I’ve endured your nasty and personal comments long enough.
I don’t have the ego that I NEED to be on this forum. I give, but don’t get much back but grief from self righteous name callers, and it’s not worth it any more.
Bob, your inability or unwillingness to force people to be civil is unacceptable. A forum is to be a place to exchange ideas and information, and yes, debate. Reducing it to a pool of kool aid makes it worthless.
And it will be a complete and total disappointment if you allow all these abusive posts to exist and delete this one.
I am out of here.
Greg
Greg,
I truly hope you are just venting your anger in frustration with the current situation. Your input is worth a thousand Joe’s even on your bad day. Exactly how has he contributed to this site? You have the scores on the board to prove your worth.
The trolls have a little plan to weed out those they do not like by their subtle attacks and then claim being bullied. Look at them for their worth to you and your life. They are a mere flyspot on the wall of life. You are a bigger person than they credit you so please do not let their scheming win out. You choose, Bob willing to post or not to post here. Make it your decision not that of others.
There is a growing list of members that I will simply take no note of. This is in accordance with the posted forum ‘sticky’ rules. I will not read any posting by them or respond to any assistance they may require. I avoid their pettiness. Perhaps you need such a list and enjoy the better parts of this site. At one time I happily shared my modelling expertise, but of late I honestly could not be bothered. I can well understand your frustration. You have devoted years to this hobby. If possible I would limit access to your website by perhaps invitation, maybe then many will appreciate what you have achieved. This is indeed a thankless world eager only to satisfy their own greed.
Tim,
I was going to write that you and I have pretty much the same desire for this forum - civility and mutual respect … that is until I read your last post. You blatantly denigrate a fellow member who doesn’t agree with you and come down on him for doing exactly what you’ve just done.
I admire the knowledge and experience of the “experts” who regularly post here- they’ve done much to advance the LS hobby. What I don’t like is the rude crap that’s often dispensed with the good advice. And that goes for many other members who when trading posts with someone who disagrees with them immediately resort to name calling and hyperbole as though that will somehow strengthen their argument.
I’m relatively new to the forum - I started coming here in 2008 or 09. I was troubled even then by the very issues that we’re debating right now. And as I recall the rant djour had to do with Aristo and/or the Polks, and it was lead by many of the same folks that are still at it today.
I’ve attached a post I submitted in September of 2009 to show that the same issues that troubled me and a lot of other folks 4 or 5 years ago are still going on today unresolved.
"Gentlemen,
I’ll start with a brief bio; I’ve been interested in LS for many years and contribute occasionally to other forums. I have a few Bachmann engines and quite a few cars and coaches (all Bachmann). I’ll be up and running again in a new location (Ohio, USA) by this spring. I’m all about R/C+Battery and have one engiine set up with a 75MHZ TE and I love the concept. I’m not much interested in sound. And most importantly, I love this hobby and feel that it, like any other pursuit in life (other than work and politics) should be stress free and FUN.
Now to my point. I’m new to this forum and frankly I’m very disappointed in the contentious nature of this thread. And I’ve detected some of it in other threads as well. I’ve been able to identify the key players in this debate and know something about a couple the members of the attacking team. But most of the opposition is not familiar to me. I’ll be making a decision about my control system very soon and frankly I’m leaning toward the Revolution. I’m retired so this is a big expense for me. Therefore I don’t want to make a mistake. Some of you guys are key players in this business and therefore should be able to give good technical advice. But what most of the rest of us need to know is, will that advice be unbiased and fair? What we read is one guy saying about the other “you’re a liar” and the the other answering back “am not, you’re the liar” which leaves most of the rest of us confused and wondering what the hell is going on. Most of us don’t really care if the carrier frequency sideband is generated in the flux capacitor or in the backward wave oscillator but that’s what this debate is starting to sound like.
I’m not naive, I understand that every vendor will advertise his product’s strongest points and probably down play the weaker ones. And as I read the claims made by the many players in this market I should be able to make an informed decision about which product will serve me best. But as I read this thread, I’m left with the feeling that I can’t believe anything anyone says.
So, for the majority of the forum members for whom this is just a hobby, can someone PLEASE construct a no nonsense statement devoid of hyperbole, name calling, and nitpicking semantics, that clearly and honestly states the strong and not-so-strong points of the various control systems. I think we need something like, “this system is probably best for you if this is what you’d like to be able to do”.
I hope I haven’t offended anyone, if I have , I apologize,
Walt"
Walt,
two points. Firstly, Joe has a stake in this ‘punchup’. If he gets a bloody nose out of it then it is well deserved. He has very selective memory when it comes to recalling the content of his postings. It is pretty easy to remember a simple punctuation mark but when he forms a few words into a sentence then the opinions he expresses seem to be forgotten. It is always him that is being picked on, apparently, according to him and also apparently there is no justification for it. I will not sit idly by and watch him cause experienced members to leave this site. If his feelings are hurt then whose fault is that? Self inflicted foot in mouth injuries do not count for sympathy.
Secondly, you seem to have this opinion that members of this site who have a commercial business are hellbent on pushing that business onto us. You had that opinion some years ago and it is still upper most in your thoughts.
From my perspective, the only business that has blatantly promoted itself was a company that took over the American RCS business several years ago. This company blatantly pushed its battery and R/C support products and its specials on a regular basis in self promoting postings. This was blatant free promotion. Finally I believe the company took out forum sponsorship and the blatantly commercial postings disappeared. As regards the other R/C suppliers like Tony Walsham (RCS) and Del Tapporo, well they certainly do not promote their own businesses. Both will advise of a new product release, but definately will not recommend their own product exclusively when advice is sought.
One company, believe it or not, that has received completely unpaid for promotion is Aristo-Craft with firstly their Train Engineer, then the stillborn 75mhz system and later the Revolution. I do not believe that a single dollar was ever received for the blatant promotion by some on this site.
If the feature does not already exist, maybe Bob could add an “ignore user” feature where as the forum member I could selectively 'cut out" posts by selected members. This would remove the temptation to respond in a negative way. As the owner it would also provide a data source to determine forum management. I have seen that feature somewhere, but can’t remember which forum it was on.
@Greg - I am sure I speak for others as well, but I agree with Tim, I would cordially request that you do keep visiting and posting as you see the need. Your knowledge and experience is both well documented and, at least by me, appreciated.
As an aside, Joe sent me a PM attempting to justify his position. I chose to not respond as I felt I had said all that needed said in my first couple of posts.
Bob C.
Bob Cope said:
If the feature does not already exist, maybe Bob could add an “ignore user” feature where as the forum member I could selectively 'cut out" posts by selected members. This would remove the temptation to respond in a negative way. As the owner it would also provide a data source to determine forum management. I have seen that feature somewhere, but can’t remember which forum it was on.
…
Bob,
There is something in “Settings” (at the top beside the "Sign Out"button) it states
Blocked Members
Adding a person to your block list makes your profile (and all of your other content) unviewable to them. Any connections you have to the blocked person will be canceled. To add someone to your block list, visit that person’s profile page.
Do not display me in searches, browsing members, or the “Online Members” list.
I don’t know what exactly is included in " Adding a person to your block list makes your profile (and all of your other content) unviewable to them". I’m sure Bob McCown will be able to explain the exact function.
The “Mark As Read” button works just fine for all this nonsense…