Large Scale Central

DCC newbie

Electronics Power and Sound
#1

I once avowed never to stray over to the dark side of smoke and mirrors of DCC and was a dedicated analogue devotee. My original intention was to power my railroad with multiple 27 mhz Train Engineer receivers. I went ahead and purchased four sets, giving me one to have as a spare unit. Well during trials one unit failed after only being used five times with less than three hours total. The power on relay has seized on it and fails to respond to signal input when switching on. To repair entails returning to manufacturer with shipping cost in the region of $100 return.

Obviously, I am not now a TE fan and feel that I need a system that responds with certainty. When using the TE, I always had a bit of apprehension awaiting a response from the receiver and seeing movement on the rails. I feel DCC may be the way to go. I am still not in favour of going to the really dark side of battery/RC so please no battery/DCC debate.

A friend has purchased a NCE 10 amp system with wireless handpiece (around $800). He is over the moon in praising the system. I feel that 10 amps is overkill for me as I never run more than one locomotive on analogue and average current draw per loco is less than one amp. That being said, a 5 amp NCE with wireless is not much cheaper than the ten amp, therefore I would most likely go with the 10 amp system for future expansion.

I like the Lenz system but it apparently is more directed to smaller gauges and not really comfortable with largescale. A Massoth system is simply outrageous in price with initial startup around $2000 upwards without even thinking about decoder purchase.

Any suggestions as to a reliable operating system that does what it says without any fuss? In so far as power supply for the system I have the following power units. Firstly, an Aristo Ultima 10 amp DC supply that reads 21 volt output with no load. Second is a LGB 5 amp 18 volt AC power supply. The LGB is actually the unit recommended by LGB for their MTS 5 amp system. Would either power supply be suitable, keeping in mind that I do not run multiple units and have no Aristo or USA Trains diesels. Locomotives used would be primarily single motor LGB units with occasional twin motor units. Anticipated max current draw around 1.5 - 2 amps at any time.

#2

Tim, you might also like to consider track powered on board R/C.
The stuff I make can use constant track voltage with battery back up if needed.
It has four output functions included.
Way less expensive than any Large Scale DCC system here in Australia.

#3

Tim

We have a fairly large outdoor layout and it is powered by Lenz DCC. We currently have six 10 amp power districts on our layout.

In selecting a system the most important aspect is what goes in your hand. Choose the one you find the most confortable to use.

For power supplys I use the Aristo switching power supplies as they keep their voltage under load. You can start with the Ultima but I think over time you will move to a better unit.

Most of my locomotives have Lenz gold decoders in them. The reason is that you can install a on board auxilary power unit and then the locomotive can be fully controlled on dirty track with no problems.

Stan

#4

Tony,
I had at one time considered a pseudo-contol system as you describe using the Aristo TE 27 mhz system, with constant voltage to the rails. The problem that I have with RC is due to my experience with the TE system. As a younger person it seemed that RC cars performed directly when responding to a RC input. The only time I had a problem was glitching in a RC boat on the limit of the range of the basic 2-channel transmitter that I was using. The TE has instilled in me a trepidation when using RC control. It seemed like a sigh of relief every time the TE receiver responded to the transmitter. I do not want to go through that again. Odd that all systems were in the 27mhz wavelength with the RC cars having amazing range.

My decision on DCC is based on the fact that several of my LGB locomotives have factory decoders fitted. Alas, I do not know what type number decoders are there. If type 1 then a modern day DCC system is useless to me as I would need to retrofit current decoders, further adding to the cost. This would definately impact on my decision to purchase. I have already outlayed around $1000 on four Aristo TE’s and do not use them for the reason described. I need to be assured that a system will be totally faultless before investing in further systems.

I know that 2.4ghz is glitch free but I am still scarred by the TE ‘experience’. I am aware that a wireless DCC control is still basically ‘RC’ but hopefully the wavelength in use is better suited to being glitch free. One system uses in the region of 900mhz, but then this is the illfated frequency Aristo intended before shelving for the 2.4ghz Revolution. I think the decision to change frequencies was based on parts availability from suppliers and hopefully not a response issue.

#5

Stan,
odd that you should mention the Lenz system as that was the way my heart was leading me as they were the innovators of the standards in usage today. However, it seems that the Lenz is being demonised as an upstart largescale system piggy backed onto a very good ‘h.o.’ scale DCC system. Faults reported about not being able to handle largescale power requirements. I would like a Lenz system but am concerned as issues with having the power to operate what in my case would be a very basic situation as regards power requirements. I do not intend purchasing gas guzzling power hogs like the modern diesels.

Perhaps you could advise me the central station model number that you are using, please. Obviously, your districts are ‘boosted’ or are you using multiple central units?

#6

Tim

All DCC systems have only one brain which constructs the packets that are sent over the rails.

On our railroad we normally use an old LZ100 with the latest software but an LZV100 would work just as well, no difference. The command station is the part that is tied to the unit that you hold in your hand which is why I always recommend you first select what you want to have in your hand and that will define the system.

Most high end systems allow for a large number of power districts to be added. You can mix and match manufacturers of similar design as well.

For example you can use NCE power stations with a Lenz system or use Lenz power stations with an NCE system as both use an opto based control bus between the power stations and the command station

Over time we have had Digitrax power stations, NCE power stations and Lenz power stations on our layout.

Currently we have a mixture of older LV200 (best power station ever built in my opinion but no longer produced) and paired LV102 units

A Lenz LV102 5 amp Booster (power station) is actually under the hood five 1 amp units tied together. For a 10 amp booster you simply connect two 5 amp units together. You can add more to get any amperage you desire in a district but I think 10 amps is about right.

Hope that helps answer your questions.

Stan

#7

Tim,

  1. What are your model railway buddies using? i.e. go and try out what they’re using, pay close attention to how handy the handhelds are, how easy the programming is i.e. changing engine numbers, assembling a consist of two or more engines, assigning “F” buttons to the way you want to use the functions.

  2. for the garden: reach and type of R/C throttles i.e. can you do anything with the R/C that you can do with a tethered throttle? Is the R/C throttle the same as the tethered i.e. not a dumbed down version which forces you to learn a bunch of different routines. Can the throttles be set to different user levels i.e. restricted controls for visitors and children (that way they don’t screw with your settings and create havoc).

  3. Upgrade ability: can you upgrade any part of the total system that uses firmware by downloading the firmware from the internet and installing it in whichever part needs the upgrade.

  4. Expandability: limited, so-so or unlimited.

  5. Customer support both from the mfg and from user groups.

There are many systems out there, the old maxim “you get what you pay for” applies. And last but not least: today’s bargain is tomorrow’s boondoggle. Soooooooooo do your research and know what you need/want.

BTW in the DCC field you can mix and match many components, but again, it depends what you choose in the first place. They are not all equal!

PS no I don’t have a connection to any of the mfgs, but back in 2000-02 I did a lot of research and then chose accordingly. The system I chose is still top of the heap and the leader in the field, no, they don’t have a whole bunch of side lines they just produce the very best DCC system.

#8

<<PS no I don’t have a connection to any of the mfgs, but back in 2000-02 I did a lot of research and then chose accordingly. The system I chose is still top of the heap and the leader in the field, no, they don’t have a whole bunch of side lines they just produce the very best DCC system. >>

And what system is that, Hans?

#9

The system is ZIMO, I use it for N, HOm and IIm scales.

Yes, one of my friends is the NA importer, but other than timely info on what’s going/coming and in between, no “financial benefits”.

Neither do I plug ZIMO, I just point out what certain systems can do, in contrast to what others can’t do; it’s up to the buyer to find out what suits his/her requirements and pocket book. OTOH me being me, I tend to have a big smile on my face when someone changes from a crappy system to one that actually “delivers”, not just the first few years but on and on and on … because it has been designed to be updated, at virtually no cost to the user … other than the higher initial price tag. :wink: :slight_smile:

#10
Tim Brien said:
.................

My decision on DCC is based on the fact that several of my LGB locomotives have factory decoders fitted. Alas, I do not know what type number decoders are there.
…


Tim,

For many years now, people who want actual control of their DCC engines have stripped the LGB decoders (regardless of how new or old a model), rewired to some extent and installed a different decoder. There are quite a few sites on the net with step by step instructions what was changed to what and for which reason.

And yes, there were a lot of people who were happy with the LGB-MTS1 (which was an OEM product from LENZ) even though it constantly lagged behind the times and they were stuck with it i.e. those people had to be happy or they had to change. :smiley: :wink: :smiley:

#11

Tim

Depending on the age of your LGB decoders, LGB introduced the concept of parallel and serial to control their functions.

Parallel is normal DCC, in serial to get to F2 you send two F1 commands, F3 three F1 commands.

While you can do this from any DCC system it is a pain. I believe Zimo has made this easier for its users by making this strange behavior invisible to the user.

Stan

#12

Thankyou all. It seems that I have some homework to do. In so far as people in the local area, well they use battery power and withdrew their welcome when I would not invest the money to go battery power just to run on their railroads. A DCC system would be for my usage only, so would need to make me feel comfortable using it.

I believe my factory decoders are type 11, possibly not the later parallel type introduced in late 2003. I know Massoth run the later LGB decoders and that a genuine LGB MTS system will run analogue, something the later systems seem reluctant to do.

#13

Tim,

Have fun doing the home work! :wink:

You can run one DC engine on a MTS system, however since it’s not a speed demon to start with (capacity of the bus and means of sending F* commands) stretching the “0” bit to run the DC engine can slow things down and even the good Bühler motors will heat up doing it.

BTW the “F*” does not refer to the F-bomb, despite being frequently used by those who have a serial type MTS system. :wink: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

ON the bright side, you’re probably able to pick up a MTS system for a song if you find someone who upgrades.

#14

Hans,
the Zimo looks nice and starting price on a par with the NCE 10 amp wireless system. I like Lenz but it seems that the prices are relatively low per piece than other systems (apart from decoders). Does price equate to quality? Lenz is maximum 18 volt AC or DC at 5 amps. Is this a limiting factor? Is cordless phone the only wireless method with Lenz? I know 2.4 ghz wireless handsets are cheap as chips but the numerical pad is not usually large fingered friendly?

#15

Tim - If you want a good primer on DCC, the Digitrax Big Book of DCC is a great one. I have one that I no longer need and could post to you for just a bit over the cost of mailing.

After much gnashing of teeth, I finally decided against DCC.

#16

Jon,
many thanks. I have sorted out a reasonable amount of information on the web to get an idea of my needs. It seems with DCC that you can only scratch the surface and yet be very happy with the results, or you can dig really deep with programming and really complicate the topic.

   All I am after is a basic system that increases/decreases speed, changes direction and operates sound systems. Consisting and multiple train running is not my interest.   It seems that the premise of most systems is to make them as complicated as possible,  so that the average user knows very little of the potential of each system.

   Another point is that it seems that dealers have more info on their sites than the actual manufacturer does.
#17
Tim Brien said:
Another point is that it seems that dealers have more info on their sites than the actual manufacturer does.
Exactly why I bought the book. I couldn't get all the information I wanted in any one place. The book seemed to answer that need.
#18

I’m very happy with my NCE system, basically it is the right mix for me. I like the controllers, which have a number of dedication function buttons. I prefer this as opposed to layers of menus. The screen is not like a game boy, I don’t need color or pretty pictures, just a nice high contrast display that can be read in the brightest sun.

I can buy whatever system I want, and after several years with the NCE, it’s still my first choice. If Zimo or Massoth made better controllers (more useable as opposed to computer like) I might go with them, since the electronics is very high quality, although you pay a lot extra also.

You might read my site on DCC about how I made my choice, and also some pictures of the different controllers for different systems.

Regards, Greg

#19

Tim, one thing you need to consider for any R/C of DCC is the frequency of the TX hand piece.
Most seem to be 900 MHz and as I understand it, that frequency is reserved for telecommunications here in OZ, not for anything else. In other words those DCC systems that use 900 MHz cannot legally be used in OZ.
Yes I know some users are importing them and not getting caught.

Of course, if you are using tethered hand pieces you have nothing to worry about.

BTW, Polk changed from 900 MHz for the Revolution when he realised that 900 MHz would not be legal Worldwide where as 2.4 GHz would be legal.

#20

Greg,
I had a read of your DCC comments/observations. Very informative

Tony,
now that is a problem I have come up against. NCE and others (other than infra red, use an FM frequency range, apparently). I thought that the new Piko (Massoth) system might be OK, although the Euro frequency is around 433mhz and U.S. version 915mhz. A check online shows that 918-928 are reserved for Australia and yet a check of another site shows the 915 is approved for LAN communication networks in Australia. There is something called band hopping whereby a signal sent out on a frequency in the stated range, will hop frequencies within the 902 - 938 bandwidth until a response is sensed. I do not know if this applies to DCC but it would rule out the 915 mhz range that Piko uses in the U.S. I also believe the Euro 433mhz is reserved for radio communication.

    I do not want to be operating contrary to the law as a local individual has already threatened some with illegal imported Aristo steam locomotives with possibility of law infringement.  I agree that a system should be used legally,  as if in the communication range,  then it could cause interference.

    I liked the Piko in that the Navigator hand piece could also operate an analogue 5 amp controller as well with wireless.  So I would then have wireless analogue and wireless DCC when required.