I recently had battery power installed in my PA/PB and GP 38 USA engines; also have a Phoenix system installed in both. I was initially thrilled with it.
I was expecting about 4 hours of run time. I’m lucky if I get 2, on a full charge. Each engine has only 5-6 cars behind it, and the grades are not that big. I do blow the horns every so often for the neighborhood kids.
I really liked the idea of battery power and now I find myself regretting my decision.
Is there a way to have track power to supplement the battery, or should I say have the battery supplement the power in areas that the power may not be solid? And if so, would this be a recommended approach.
I didn’t want to go with track power up front b/c I was not sure that my connections were solid enough, and I don’t know how or want to explore the avenue of soldering jumpers.
Is there a way to do want I want, if so I can then begin to research my options of having this done.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Shelley.
Who told you to expect 4 hour run times? The battery maker? The system installer?
How long a loco will run depends on the capacity of the batteries and how much current the locos are drawing.
Small capacity = short run times.
Do you know what the battery capacity is?
There is a very simple way of extending run times to be virtually unlimited.
If you are charging the batteries in the loco via an external access jack, that jack can be wired so that it can do two things.
- When the ON - OFF switch is OFF it is used to charge the batteries.
- When the ON - off switch is ON it is used to plug in external (to the loco) batteries to extend run times.
Inserting the plug automatically disconnects the on board batteries and saves them for light engine running.
You can read up on how to do this here: http://www.rcs-rc.com/pages/bik-u3v2 scroll down and click on the pdf link.
I usually mount the charge jack at the the rear of the loco so it is easily accessible for the trail car behind that is carrying the auxiliary battery packs.
What kind of batteries? Those engines, each, can draw more than three amps with a load. 6000 MAH batteries on a 3 amp load will give you about 2 hours.
More or less.
We used to use 2000’s in F’s and Geeps, got about an hour, maybe a bit more depending on load.
Once again, what type batteries, what MAH rating?
Oh, and who made the packs?
Tony The battery power is a 18.5V 5600maH Li Ion in each engine. I went to your pdf. I surely don’t understand how it was wired. I had it professionally done. I have no issue with the company that did the install, I think they did a great job. I was just expecting longer run times. I guess I may have to send the engines and maybe a trailing car or two back to them to add more battery. Oh well, will just have to charge more often. I should get about a 1000 charges out to these batteries, correct? This is what the bottom of my engines look like. I think it’s a pretty sweet set up, and the charging port is very accessible.
(http://freightsheds.largescalecentral.com/users/cpo/_forumfiles/USAGP382BatteryContols.jpg)
Who told you to expect 4 hours?
2 hours sounds about right for 5,600 mah when powering the the PA + PB if they are both powered.
Not easy to do but you could try taking the motors and gears out of the PB. That will not double the run time but will extend the time a bit.
Doubling up on battery capacity inside the loco will complicate the wiring quite a bit.
Nobody said 4 hours to me, I came across that number somewhere while doing my research on battery vs track power. It is true, people shouldn’t believe everything they read, especially a newbie!!! 
Depends on the locmotive and the load. I can get 9 hours out of a Bach/BBT/2-8-0 unless I load it down hard, then about 7, but it’s single motor, GOOD motor (not PRC), so the run time varies.
Best bet with a new loco is to check voltage requirements and current draw under load on track power. I do.
Tells you A) how much voltage you actually need, and B) how many MAH you need for a desired runtime.
Get rid of those sliders. And the pickup wires on the sideframes.
If they are not disconnected, you might be powering the track from the battery as well.
There should be only two wires coming out of the motor block–a red and a black.
Whoever did your install should have known that.
If your PA’s are set up like the picture as well, that’s part of the problem.
John Bouck said:
Get rid of those sliders. And the pickup wires on the sideframes. If they are not disconnected, you might be powering the track from the battery as well. There should be only two wires coming out of the motor block--a red and a black. Whoever did your install should have known that.If your PA’s are set up like the picture as well, that’s part of the problem.
Yes I believe the PA’s are set up like this. I am having low run times on both the GP 38 and the PA/PB.
Could they have left the sliders on b/c I may want to add track power in addition to battery, at some point down the road?
How can I determine if I am powering the track?
I really don’t want to tear apart the engine, I’m sure I could figure it out, but I really don’t want to go there. 
As seen in the picture, there seems to be 4 wires exiting, 2 black and 2 red, and 1 wire leading to each wheel, red to one wheel and black to the other.
Can anyone explain to me what the purpose of each wire is?
And I am not able to fully appreciate from the picture, the pickup wires you mention on the sideframes.
Thanks for your time
Shelley, it is time to send it back to the installer and tell hiim/her you are very unhappy with what he/she/it has done!! I have a 3 Truck Shay, all trucks powered with a 5 or 6 amp control board and 4500 mah batteries in the tender. With that I get about 3 hours or better. Why the sliding pickups where left is beyond me. Thank you for not naming the installer, they need to make some corrections to your installation.
Paul
I would not expect 1,000 cycles from li-ion, expect 500 or less, 300-400 is more reasonable. If in doubt, consult the manufacturer’s site, this is definitely one specification every major battery manufacturer has.
Another tip, USAT locos often have very low impedance motors, a 1 ohm 20 watt resistor in series with the motors can really help. See George Schreyer’s site on power draw on USAT locos.
Regards, Greg
Shelley,
You should be able to determine if you are powering the track by turning the battery switch to on, and hooking a voltmeter to the slides on the bottom of the trucks. Turn on the throttle to be sure the isnt any voltage going through the sliders. Next thing is your installer might have left them there so you could run either on-board battery or the track power you have already on your layout.
I wouldn’t call the install bad if all we are going on is the sliders still staying on the loco. Maybe even ask the installer if he left the sliders intact so you can run with track power.
As far as charging off the track to run the batteries, or having them run in areas where there is spotty connections is a bit more complicated. A controller of some sort would have to be installed in the locomotive to sense when the elec. connection is low and switch to battery power and back when the connection is good. The controller would also have to sense when the betteries are full so they dont get overcharged and something bad happen (ie melt down). There is such a thing, but its going to cost you more if your not comfortable doing it yourself.
The wires from the sideframes are track power pickups from the axle ends.
Two of the red/black are from the sliders.
The other two are power back to the motor block.
Those are the only two you need for batt/rc.
Shelley, get ahold of your installer and ask him what his plan (thinking) is.
Let us know.
Track/batt intregated power isn’t impossible, just a PITA.
I would choose one or the other.
Most guys who venture to Batt/RC never go back to track power.
Soldered track with power to it will run all day long…
E. Paul Austin said:
Shelley, it is time to send it back to the installer and tell hiim/her you are very unhappy with what he/she/it has done!! I have a 3 Truck Shay, all trucks powered with a 5 or 6 amp control board and 4500 mah batteries in the tender. With that I get about 3 hours or better. Why the sliding pickups where left is beyond me. Thank you for not naming the installer, they need to make some corrections to your installation.Paul
Paul,
It’s not that I’m unhappy with the install/installer, just the contrary. I’m just trying to see if my expectations are in line with the performance, and the opinions here are very insightful. I was thinking I should have been getting “at least” 4 hours of run time, and now I know different. I will be in touch with the installer, and I know he’ll take care of it should something have gone hay-wire. I plan to do some more problem solving this weekend, too tired to run the trains during the week.
John Bouck said:
The wires from the sideframes are track power pickups from the axle ends. Two of the red/black are from the sliders. The other two are power back to the motor block. Those are the only two you need for batt/rc.Shelley, get ahold of your installer and ask him what his plan (thinking) is.
Let us know.
Track/batt intregated power isn’t impossible, just a PITA.
I would choose one or the other.
Most guys who venture to Batt/RC never go back to track power.
I originally went to my installer looking for a DCC install for track power. He and I spoke and he asked me some questions and I decided then that battery power was the best for me. I am not regretting the battery road, just getting my expectations in line. I did ask if battery and track power were possible together. I have been reading some things about this, and it does seem that it is possible, but I didn’t know that it is a PITA. The battery power allowed me to get my trains running this summer. If I had gone down the track power road, it might have been Labor day before the trains ran!!!
My interest in the hobby is not with the tinkering with the engines. I want it to be just like my Mac computer, I just want it to work. I enjoy other parts of the hobby. But just b/c I don’t want to do the engine work, doesn’t mean I don’t like to know how and why things are, which is why I come here alot; believe me, I will still pay someone to do the electrical stuff while continuing to educate myself on the how and why.
As I tell my friends “This train Hobby is not about the destination, but rather it’s about the journey”
So I definitely plan on letting my installer in on the problems I “think” I am having.
John,
Spoke with the installer. the wires to the truck wheels and sliders were/are disconnected.
IMHO, as a newbie, I don’t see the harm with the sliders still being attached. I can’t imagine they create much, if any, resistance. And who knows, I just may want to have track power as an option in the future, depending on how much ($$) of a PITA it is.
David Russell said:Where does it run to?
Soldered track with power to it will run all day long..... ;)
As George Schreyer found out many years ago, the problem with most USA Trains diesels is the lighting. The circuit boards on the newer units can run on 3 volts, but draw a lot power. The voltage regulators also have to drop the voltage down to that of the lighting circuit boards, so a lot of energy is wasted as heat. That is why they are mounted on the weights.
I have two USA Trains GP-9s with an Aristo-Craft, lithium-ion battery pack and a Phoenix Sound P8 board in them. I can run them all morning during our railway operations and still have lots of battery power left. I also installed a Aristo-Craft, lithium-ion battery pack and Phoenix Sound PB9 in a friend’s USAT GP-30. He can also run it all morning without problems. The reason we can do this is because we replaced the lighting circuit boards with LED headlights and number board lights.
http://ovgrs.editme.com/files/Geep30/RearLights.bmp
As the LED lights and motors are controlled directly by the receiver, the power wasting USAT Trains main circuit board and voltage regulators were removed.
As you did not mention having problems with your lights, I am going to assume you are not using Revolution receivers in your units. Can you tell what operating system you are using, as this will help others provide some other solutions to the problem.
The control is a Crest Train Engineer Revolution with Px sound system, in both the GP and the PA/PB.
Are the lights hard to replace with LED’s?