Drat, I was so busy this weekend I missed everything.
Which page has the “I’m telling mom” post?
ahh… Every manufacturer has good stuff and things to be improved.
When you stick up for only one manufacturer consistently and the rest are “bad” it’s really not realistic or fail.
Greg
Here you go Greg, Page 5
J.D. Gallaway said:
Okay, I know I said I wouldn’t jump back in here, but I’m exercising my responsibilities as a good citizen here.
Some of the discussion appears to be getting a bit heated in this thread and it needs to be toned down now. If this were a private discussion between known individuals well established in the hobby, I wouldn’t care how many flames get shot. But the truth is that its open to anyone who wanders into the site, further, the comments appear as a rolling commentary on the very front page of the site.
This not only sends a bad image of the people we have here, but also encourages newcomers to exit the hobby as fast as they can return their purchases, which does no one any good, least of all those complaining about cost vs quality issues.
So, either tone it down and leave the personal criticisms on the paintball field, or (capital emphasis) I will ask Bob to lock this thread. (Course, that’s not saying he will do it because I ask.)
Bob: if I overstepped my bounds here, please accept my sincerest, humblest, apologies.
-Jason
We’ve read similar stuff before, so nothing really new. 
Thanks HJ!
Apology accepted JD!
Now we return you to your regularly scheduled program: trains!
(and the list prices of trains do indeed seem absurd, good thing we don’t buy them at those prices!)
Greg
Well, its funny. Despite all the whining about my post, I haven’t seen anymore attacks/snipes towards fellow members here.
And for the record, I was NOT complaining about the topic discussion, just that it was leaving “discussion” and moving towards “verbal paintball match”, and that’s what I had a problem with.
Thank you for restoring civility on the thread, happy discussion.
-J.D.
Yes, I agree, we can have discussions and be civil and polite and STILL disagree on various aspects of the topic.
I’ve been the target of plenty of snipes and personal attacks, although most people that actively did that went off and created their own forum, which was a great idea.
Regards, Greg
JD,
Anytime I read (even if paraphrased) “It will hurt the hobby” in response to facts being stated, I wonder how it could hurt the hobby. Will there be less shoddy merchandise available? Will it prevent people from buying shoddy merchandise?
I suppose some people have a totally different idea of what personal attacks means.
sheetohdear if anything in this thread so far fit into someone’s idea of “personal attacks”, well, he or she must have led a very shelterted life.
You have no idea.
TOC
JD, darlin’… Is there an off/on switch attached to your Com Pewter?
Just askin…
You might see if yours works when your sensibilities get offended.
Summary:
Predictable reliability and initial quality impression is the issue.
One company repeatedly has taken the hits for quality control.
Consistent initial reviews and reports after sales has damaged not only a corporation’s brand image but the large scale hobby itself.
No growth of the hobby was ever greater than when LGB was not only THE brand but a seen as the large scale product.
LGB testimonials for product durability are legion. However, there is a clear time frame for those LGB products. That is before the myriad of corporate sales and resales.
So where are we now? Are we ready to embrace a KATO, Athern, Atlas, and MTH brand that proclaims product trust even prior to their product’s existence? Those brands are examples of what is missing in the largest large scale producer, Bachmann.
We wait…and our hobby continues to lose trust.
Wendell
Hi Guys;
The best price observation posted so far about Bachmann product pricing was the reference to the Bachmann 2-8-0 1:20.3 scale Connie and the latest Bachmann C-19 1:20.3 scale loco.
The Connie frame side detail is more involved than the C-19 and yet there is now a very large retail price gap between the two models.
My favourite Bachmann loco is the 1:20.3 American 4-4-0. TrainWorld presently has the Russia Iron & Lake version at a give away price. The paint on this model is museum grade. If you want one order now as the new stock 4-4-0 locos at TrainWorld are 560.00 .
Still have not bought the open trolley car as the drive is unreliable. Will probably buy one anyhow as it is such a nice model. Apparently folks install a USA Trains drive in these trolley cars once the Bachmann drive fails.
My lament is that Lee Riley, way back then when pricing was affordable, produced the Connie instead of a C-16 or the present C-19. Now pricing is way up, far greater than the rate of inflation.
Is this because LGB is no longer the leader in the industry for American narrow gauge featuring German mfg. drives?
The Chinese are world famous for reverse engineering and copying the superior product of others. Why cannot Bachmann simply reverse engineer and copy the LGB Mogul drive for a high reliable drive?
I hope that Bachmann produces a “Little Hauler” 2-4-4T forney using their “Little Hauler” loco with tender to produce a product similar to the Baldwin Disneyland loco # 5 “Ward Kimball” or the WW&F loco # 7 .
If not, that is a future bash for myself.
As for most of us, Bachmann introduced me to largescale. It is such a shame that their higher product pricing will now discourage rather than encourage others to now join the largescale hobby.
There is no way that I would ever have entered largescale through the LGB product line regardless of its high mechanical quality. No way that I would pay that much money for a plastic bodied loco. Die cast metal yes, molded plastic no way.
Norman
Norman…they do back engineer. Sen it. Encouraged on aftermarket manufacturer to not provide them with a sample. End of that discussion.
However, I have a replacement drive for a trolley. It will outlast the PRC plastics by a large factor.
Guy that makles them is on these very forums.
New guys at the OPS sessions are always amazed when they see it. Even more amazed when I hand them a box of assorted…electronics.
TOC
Quote: “The Chinese are world famous for reverse engineering and copying the superior product of others. Why cannot Bachmann simply reverse engineer and copy the LGB Mogul drive for a high reliable drive?”
Norman,
some years ago a Chinese company did such a thing with their 2-6-2 based on a LGB Mogul drive, however, reliability was not one of its virtues. In fact it had no virtues. It was a complete load of rubbish. The plastic suffered the typical recyled plastic disintegration and the wheels wobbled and electronics were poorly constructed. A complete waste of money. Bachmann denied any connection with the locomotive, even though it appeared that a copy of Bachmann tooling was used for some components.
I’ve been contemplating this thread since it was only 2 pages long. (And with this response, I’ve added another two pages, so I apologize in advance for the length.)
“The Chinese are world famous for reverse engineering and copying the superior product of others. Why cannot Bachmann simply reverse engineer and copy the LGB Mogul drive for a high reliable drive?”
In a way, they have, though not LGB. (I wouldn’t want LGB’s “block” motor on a steamer anyway; you can’t do that and have a prototypical space between the boiler and the frame, or things like prototypical valve gear, etc.–but I digress.) Bachmann’s new C-19 is as good a runner as I have ever come across in large scale. It rivals the best efforts of Accucraft, LGB, and others reputed for their strong engineering and smooth performance. Pittman motor, large metal gears, decent gear ratio; to be frank (and no disparagement meant to Barry’s drives) it’s every bit equal to a BBT drive. It’s that good. All those years we’ve been posting on these forums that Bachmann should just copy Barry’s drive, they’ve listened. (Though clearly this is their own design, not a copy of Barry’s.) I’ve got a C-19 powered by one of Barry’s custom drives. I’ve also got a Bachmann C-19. The two locos are very evenly matched, with a slight nod going to Bachmann’s drive at start-up and very slow speeds.
Flash in the pan or sign of things to come? That has yet to be determined. Bachmann (and others) have a habit of re-inventing the wheel to some extent with each loco they produce. But consider this; we spend a lot of time talking about the “Connie” with its notorious gear issue (and the 4-4-0/2-6-0 that uses the same gear), or the Shay or some of Bachmann’s other notorious foibles. And those issues are legitimate. But more and more, they represent the early history of what Bachmann has produced. All of those locos have been out for at least a decade or longer; yet we talk about them as if they’re representative of the current state of affairs. I don’t think that’s fair commentary.
I’ve owned or operated a lot of what Bachmann has produced, for better or for worse. I can almost replace a broken gear in a “Connie” blindfolded. I’ve re-motored my 2-6-0 because the stock motor was underpowered. They’ve had their trip-ups. But they’ve also learned from the past. Since the K-27 (and despite the gear ratio debate with that loco), the drives have been pretty problem-free. The K-27–with or without Rodney’s gearhead reducer–runs very smoothly, and Bachmann fixed the original counterweight issue almost immediately. I had no complaints about the performance of mine on my own railroad (2% maximum grade) prior to installing Rodney’s gearhead reducer, though I readily admit the reduction makes it an even stronger performer (if a bit noisier). I’ve got two locos that use the trucks from a 45-tonner, and in both cases, the locos run very smoothly. The one that runs on my dad’s line does have some surging going down steep grades (4% or greater) with a heavy train in tow, but that’s a behavior common to many of the locos on his railroad no matter who makes them. (Still working on figuring out how to put a “retainer” on the caboose to stretch out the train. I may work on that for my trip east this Summer…) The one that operates on my railroad can just crawl at 1 scale mph and couple to a train. (Or–at that speed–push the train down the track without actually closing the coupler because there’s not enough force.) My 2nd-generation Climax runs just as smoothly.
The Forney, 2-6-6-2, re-engineered 2-4-2, Davenport, etc.–the forums are pretty quiet when it comes to these locos. Given how we (generally speaking) love to complain when things don’t work, I’d chalk this up to “no news is good news.” I’ve owned and/or worked on a few of these, and have no real complaints about their running characteristics. They’re all “average” or better.
“Rose colored glasses?” I’d like to think not. I don’t do anything “special” to my locomotives, in fact I probably do less than most. My experiences with Bachmann’s early offerings mirror most others’ experiences, so I have every reason to expect my experiences with their later ones to be similarly indicative of the overall class.
“The Connie frame side detail is more involved than the C-19 and yet there is now a very large retail price gap between the two models.”
These two locos are in completely different classes. The “Connie” doesn’t hold a candle to the C-19 in terms of detail, accuracy, performance, or complexity. Don’t get me wrong; the “Connie” is a nice locomotive–I love mine–but it’s pretty generic and the details are not necessarily accurate. (Don’t know that you’d really want to run the water line from the tender straight into the firebox.) If you want that loco to qualify as “super-detailed,” you’ll be spending a few evenings in the workshop with a drawer full of Trackside Details and Ozark Miniatures parts. The C-19, on the other hand, is “super-detailed” pretty much straight out of the box. I spent a good deal of time crawling over the C-19 at the Colorado RR museum when I was scratchbuilding mine. There’s not many details Bachmann missed–including prototypically operating clamshell firebox doors (okay, sans the pedal to operate the air to open them, but I had that on my model and it broke off very early on, so I’ll forgive them.)
Likewise, if the “Connie” had the drive that the C-19 has in it, you wouldn’t be buying it for $275 from Trainworld. Do I wish the “Connie” had a more robust drive straight from the factory? Absolutely! But you’re not going to get BBT-level performance without BBT-level price tag. And the “Connie” was produced in a time when that wasn’t the business model.
Add to that the electronics in the C-19 that the “Connie” lacks, and the price differential is very easy to understand. When you look at the C-19, as well as the K-27, Forney, and their recent “high-dollar” models, they are worlds apart from the other, cheaper locos Bachmann has produced. You don’t get something for nothing. Those improvements in terms of detail, drive quality, and on-board electronics cost money.
The bigger issue is whether the move towards $800+ locomotives will “scare” people from the hobby. I honestly don’t think so. When you put the B’mann K-27 or C-19 next to the Accucraft models at twice or three times the price, what are you getting for that extra money? Brass construction. So what? Put a coat of paint on it, and you’ll never know. (And in our scale, “unpainted brass” isn’t an option.) That’s the field these newer locomotives are playing in. In terms of detail and performance they’re on near equal footing. And, you can feel a heckuvalot better taking a razor saw to an $800 locomotive than a $2400 one. Or at least you can be a bit more assured of not sleeping on the couch after your spouse finds out you did.
Trouble is, where does that leave the “budget-conscious” modeler? In reality, the same place they’ve always been. Thirty years ago, there was LGB. Adjusted to 2010 dollars, the prices of their locos were very similar to the $800 we’re paying for Bachmann’s latest locos. As a result, we bought fewer locos. From 1976 to 1985–the first 10 years dad and I were in the hobby–we bought all of 3 new locomotives. That was it! No large fleets, no 50-car trains to pull behind; it was “save up and buy a few cars or a new locomotive as you can.” Then the “inexpensive” alternatives started hitting the market, and we bought more and more as a result. We had to repaint or do some detailing to get them to match the LGB stuff, but what the heck… they were cheap enough!
Those “inexpensive” alternatives still exist. They’re not specifically 1:20, or necessarily “new-in-box,” but they’re there. The “Annie” is still probably the best value for the dollar in large scale, and with very little effort can be “boosted” to 1:20.3. (I’ve got one in progress right now.) Or Bachmann’s smaller locos like the 0-4-0, etc., or for that matter, a NIB “Connie” and a BBT drive will only set you back around $500 total, or go cheap and get the metal replacement gear for $10 and if you’re adventurous, buy a replacement motor from NWSL for $40 to give it a bit more power. There are definitely things you can do for comparatively very little money. Not to be morbid, but none of us are getting any younger, and estate sales are a great way to pick up equipment on the cheap. You’ve got to be a bit more “plugged in” to the modeling scene to really take advantage of that, so for a newcomer it may be a bit difficult at first, but the deals are out there. (Commercial interruption: I’ve still got custom-weathered, DCC-equipped K-27 for sale.)
What’s “missing” from the equation is a line of specifically 1:20 equipment aimed at the “budget conscious” modeler like we had with the early stuff from Kalamazoo or Bachmann’s 1:22 stuff. But I honestly don’t think there’s much of a market for that, so I’m neither holding my breath nor looking to invest. I’d like to be proven wrong on that front, as I’d much rather plunk down $50 for a generic box car to which I can add my own details rather than shell out $100 for one I have to cut up. But I don’t think I’m the “typical” hobbyist. There have been other similar offerings over the years in the other scales, and none have gained any traction. (Think NWSL’s “Spartan” On3 locomotives from year back.) I think modelers who are of that mind are already buying the 1:22 stuff and modifying it to suit their needs, if not scratchbuilding, or just resigning themselves to building their collection a lot more slowly than they might otherwise do if prices were lower. Given the space that 1:20 equipment takes up, I’m not certain that’s a bad thing.
The $64,000 question is whether a manufacturer can survive on $800 locomotives alone (or a mix of $800 locos and $130 box cars.) I think if the quality is there, then yes. (And it seems that the overall trend is for the quality to be there.) And the hobby will survive as well. Is it “sticker shock” for the modeler? Sure, but in an age where you pay $50 for a round of golf (to say nothing of $1,000 for a single club), or $600 to take your family to a single football game, I think it doesn’t take long for people to put things in perspective and bite the bullet. You can spend $1,000 for a golf club, it’s not going to help your swing. At least you know the loco will stay on the track.
Later,
K
Quote: “All of those locos have been out for at least a decade or longer; yet we talk about them as if they’re representative of the current state of affairs. I don’t think that’s fair commentary.”
Kevin,
fair or not, these items are still being sold as ‘new’ locomotives and for many they DO represent the latest from Bachmann as they are firstly, purchasing a ‘new’ locomotive and secondly they are purchasing a locomotive that they can afford.
These people are not spending $600 on tickets or $1000 golf clubs. If they were then they would be able to afford Bachmann’s latest and greatest.
The cheapest I have seen a C-19 is $799.00. The cheapest I have seen a connie is $159.00. Are you sure ‘superdetailing’ and electronics are really worth another $640.00. I do not think so. For many the added electronics are superfluous. Sure Bachmann may have got the detail right but is the detail worth paying premium dollars?
I have not seen a C-19 and most likely will not, but for many if you placed a C-19 next to a connie with the price tag clearly displayed, the average joe blow could not justify the additional money required to purchase the C-19. He would rather purchase several connies for the same outlay.
Of cause the scale conscious and the well healed will pick up a few C-19 and K-27 locomotives because they can. However, many railroad on a budget and $799.00 for a locomotive from a company that has a ‘tainted’ production pedigree in largescale is a big ask. If the company’s record was untarnished then the quality would not be questioned and the price acceptable.
Lastly, MSRP and ‘street price’. It seems Bachmann have strictly controlled the wholesale pricing of their latest products. I have never seen a K-27 or C-19 at a street price. The price of the Mikado has been fairly constantly high since introduction and I serious doubt the C-19 will slip much below $800.00. Is this because Bachmann are factoring the true cost of production or simply making a hefty profit margin by keeping a tight lid on the prices that discounters pay? I feel the low street prices on earlier production actually reflected the true cost of production and thus Bachmann could ‘compensate’ the large box shifters. The C-19 is possibly a very expensive locomotive to manufacture or a golden goose.
Thanks Kevin…Nailed it.
Pretty good argument Kevin,
Think I’ll just be grateful for my dopey lil hauler stuff.
Guess I’m really out there on a niche ain’t I.
Ok, I’ll just start with it. I agree to everything Kevin said…there said it.
So, I’ll talk about my experiences. First, a little back story. I’ve been a modeler since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. I am 37 now, so I guess I’m considered young in this hobby. I have built multiple HO layouts and currently have a half built one. I still dabble in HO but my interests have shifted to Large Scale.
I got into this hobby in the Fall of 2010. A huge majority of modelers are fully aware of Large Scale as I was. I always admired large scale and felt that with my interests in working outside in my yard, it would be a great thing to have trains in my yard, someday. It all started with one locomotive, guess what it was…a Bachmann Connie. Yep, the so-called wart on the face of Large Scale. I loved the sheer size of it compared to my HOn3 2-8-0 I had. I followed up with a Bachmann Starter kit. My point is that I started how I feel most will start. The entry level stuff and then upgrade as we get more comfortable in the scale.
I’d like to talk first about Bachmann. In case you didn’t know. Bachmann does not have that great of a reputation in HO. I rarely bought Bachmann stuff, as I considered it to be junk. I stuck with Athearn (which I detailed, but they had great drives), Atlas, Broadway Limited and more. In large scale, Bachmann’s products are just as good as any others products.
I can compare both the Connie and the C-19 side-by-side since I own both and have been through or like the Connie am currently going through. The C-19 ran beautifully out of the box, I put it on a small oval in my workshop and checked it smoothness. It had no problems, I compared it to my Accucraft C-19. There really is no difference when it comes to the movement of the drive both are solid and smooth. When I tore into the C-19, I realized that I didn’t have to do near the stuff that I had to do with my Accucraft model. The electronics are solid. There are those of you are opinionated enough to say, “tear out and start over.” I just cant seem to understand why. I installed a Titan, G-wire and batteries and off I went. Very easy. Plus if I’m somewhere else who has track power or am running a display then I cent flip a switch and run track power. Very simple.
Now Accucraft, I have a beef to pick with them. The wire diagram they sent with the loco was not even close. I had to tear the entire loco apart to trace every single wire to figure out what went where. I was forced to tear out all electronics in order to convert to batt/RC. Not with Bachmann.
The Connie is a lower grade loco. Thus the price difference. As I have torn into the Connie, it is very clear to me, but I still think it is a solid loco.
Soooo…to sum it all up. Bachmann needs to keep doing what they are doing. Keep a lower priced offering in the Connie and Annie (Which is great they have address all past problems with). Which allows a modeler to get a “feel” for the scale. Also, to keep an eye on producing a higher end product for those of us who want a better product and are willing to pay for it. So we don’t have to make the large jump from starter Bachmann to Accucraft. There is a large price difference there.
The real beef in this whole thread is, some have wine tastes on a beer budget and are upset that Bachmann wont give them the wine tastes with their beer budget. Its all about budgeting, if you cant afford then start saving until you can, that is what I do and am happy to do it. That is life and we all have to live it.
“fair or not, these items are still being sold as ‘new’ locomotives and for many they DO represent the latest from Bachmann as they are firstly, purchasing a ‘new’ locomotive and secondly they are purchasing a locomotive that they can afford.”
I see where you’re coming from in terms of availability, but they don’t “represent the latest” any more than “new, old stock” HO-scale Athearn kit represents Athearn’s current production standards. There’s lots of “new, old stock” stuff sitting on store shelves. If a dealer at this point still isn’t aware of any well-documented “issues” with these models, he’s not a very good dealer. (If he does, and doesn’t tell the consumer, he’s an even worse one.)
Whatever you’re buying, and whatever your budget, if you buy without doing a little homework of your own, you’re taking a risk. Buying a locomotive isn’t normally an “impulse” buy. You have time to do some research and get some outside opinions. Find out when they were produced and if there are any known “issues” with them.
" I have not seen a C-19 and most likely will not, but for many if you placed a C-19 next to a connie with the price tag clearly displayed, the average joe blow could not justify the additional money required to purchase the C-19. He would rather purchase several connies for the same outlay."
Therein lies part of the issue; you haven’t seen one. When you see the two locomotives side by side, it’s easy to justify at least a slight price difference based on detail alone. Then you sit the two locos on the track and run them, and the price difference becomes even more justifiable. On the flip side, when you sit the Bachmann C-19 next to the Accucraft C-19, that’s a price difference that’s much harder to justify.
When I was modeling HO 25 years ago, I was still in high school, and very much on a budget. I had a small fleet of hand-me-down Athearn locos. One of them was a GP-9. When Atlas came out with their GP-9 at around $80 (about four times the price as the Athearn loco), my first thought was “why would you pay that much? Mine looks and runs pretty good.” Then I saw them sitting next to each other on the shelf. It was clear one was of finer quality. Then I ran them. I immediately started saving, and within a few months, me and $80 were soon separated. I never ran my Athearn locos after that.
“However, many railroad on a budget and $799.00 for a locomotive from a company that has a ‘tainted’ production pedigree in largescale is a big ask.”
Again, when you’re on a budget–especially when spending that much money–thorough research is critical. You have to look at overall production trends including the most recent production offerings, not just those from 10 or more years ago when prices and sophistication were much lower than they are today. Looking at a snapshot of Bachmann’s quality from 2000, I’d no sooner trust them with an $800 locomotive than I’d trust me with a razor saw based on my earliest models. “But that was then, this is now.” You HAVE to consider the “now.” And while the “now” may not be perfect, it’s a lot less prone to quirks than the “then.”
“I feel the low street prices on earlier production actually reflected the true cost of production and thus Bachmann could ‘compensate’ the large box shifters. The C-19 is possibly a very expensive locomotive to manufacture or a golden goose.”
The lower street price of the earlier production does reflect the “true” cost of production of those earlier models. The later stuff is without a doubt far more sophisticated and expensive to produce. You need only take one apart to realize that, but conversations I’ve had with the folks at Bachmann support that as well. If it wasn’t, more folks would be doing it.
@ Vic, you keep doin’ what you’re doin’. You are in a class of modelers who I admire greatly; those who are having tremendous fun in the hobby specifically in spite of the increasing costs associated with it. Some of my most inspired moments come from conversations with modelers like you; the “scrapbox wizards” as it were.
Later,
K
Amazing. First you say “You have to look at overall production trends including the most recent production offerings”, then "not just those from 10 or more years ago when prices and sophistication were much lower than they are today. Looking at a snapshot of Bachmann’s quality from 2000, I’d no sooner trust them with an $800 locomotive than I’d trust me with a razor saw based on my earliest models. “But that was then, this is now.” You HAVE to consider the “now.” And while the “now” may not be perfect, it’s a lot less prone to quirks than the “then.”
If you add them all up, beginning to end, with all the failures, and average them (looking at all of them now, doing your research), the needle falls WAY down the scale. If you look at a newest loco and base your determination on that, you’re screwed.
If you based it on the first Shay (when it was new), you were screwed.
Three truck Shay (unless you knew how to sort out broken wiring) you were screwed.
Climax…holy bat poop. 50 hours of break-in when they were new? How were the chuff contacts wired again?
Heisler…lack of lube port, loose drivelines, dropping crankshaft…syncopated chuff…cylinder blowdown cocks and pipes just outside the running board…without careful modification, how many are left intact?
2-8-0…motor screws…axle gears…wiring (and I can get very specific), crank screws…tender trucks…
K-27. I could list everything, but I’ll just list two. Dyslexic reader of electronic wiring diagrams with the result being inverted chuff, and 14.5:1.
Now, you expect folks to actually believe they should just accept any new offerings as fixed…when all the prior ones were supposed to be fixed…
Did someone buy Bachmann from Kader?
We could mention OEM Quasinami…but all that would do, when added to the above list, is make folks realize they are paying good money to be Beta testers.
TOC