Large Scale Central

Bachmann K27

General Discussion
#1

I’ve been pondering the Bachmann K27, looking at the few available pictures, and reading people’s reaction to it. First off, I’m excited by it, and Ill probably end up with one or even two. My RR has the curves for it, and I’m not interested in dropping 3-4 thousand for a brass one. That said, this message on a list I’m on bothers me:

[i][b]I’m not interested in ANY electric steam-outline locomotives, whether brass
or plastic.

It seems that I’m not alone: I belong to over 40 groups, yet get very few
group messages about them. Frankly I see more about electric trolleys than
steam-outline locomotives.

On the other hand, I get hundreds of group messages a day about
garden-gauge live steam.[/b][/i]

I dont know if its the attitude of the poster, or what, but the people that IVE talked to, just about everyone is interested in the K.

Opinions?

#2

Bob,
My opinion is not to worry about other poster’s opinions on other groups.
I will let TOC put a few of the K’s thru their paces and then decide.
From the couple pics I have seen, somehow it doesn’t look quite right to me. But that may be the pics.

TOG

#3

I read the same thing, and thought “Huh?” I’d have to agree that those particular thoughts are just the attitude of the poster, or at the very least a misinterpretation of the general reactions. I think the somewhat muted response isn’t so much a lack of enthusiasm as it is just that this is old news. We’ve known they’ve been working on this for, what, two years now? The photos on the B’mann web site are certainly generating a lot of good comments, but our “WOW!!!” moment came when a really bad photocopy of a photo was taped to a showroom curtain at a train show. Since then, we’ve been like kids on vacation… “Is it here yet?Is it here yet?Is it here yet?..” It’s still not here yet, but the photo are akin to seeing the “Exit 2 miles” sign.

I think it will be very well received. Whether one ends up on my railroad, I haven’t decided yet. I’m not into Colorado narrow gauge, and something that large may dwarf my railroad. But I think it will be great for the scale, and hopefully a harbinger of even better things to come. (Like an EBT mike in plastic!)

Later,

K

#4

If I had the room for one, and the money for one, Yes, I would get one in a heartbeat.

But I dont have the room, or the money, so pooh !!!

#5

I see a lot of oddball posts.
While live-steam is interesting, it is not practical on a large single-track operating railroad.
I don’t think I’ve fired my steamers in over a year.
Posts like that are odd enough, but when you get the sam,e person making totally different postings on many different forums, you need to wonder if somehow folks think they can change public opinion.

I spent quite a bit of time sorting out some issues with this release via telephone, as the person at the show had no internet.
I would see comments, call his cell, he’d get the printable answers from the pertinent folks on scene, yet some places, even an answer to stack, steps, vents, shells, dosn’t seem to be enough.

The thing about electric steam outline and live steam is the ability to just run.

Kiddies stop by, their attention span isn’t long enough for you to drag a steamer out, check the screws and bolts, lube it, fill the lubricator (after making sure the water is out), fill the boiler, fuel, light it off (and in cold and windy weather keeping it lit), raise pressure, re-fill fuel and water, wait for the pops, and when you open the throttle and clear the cylinders, look around and everyone has gone home, you realize if you’d just pulled the electric one out, everyone would have been happy.

#6

This sounds like a third-grade type of response: “The way I do my hobby is better than the way you do yours.” Add the put down of the electrics calling them “steam-outline” and all you get is someone trying to stir the pot. I suspect that Bachmann will sell a lot more of their “steam outline” locomotives than that writer would indicate. Of course, his estimate sounds like zero will be sold. Maybe he’s like Yogi Berra - “Nobody goes there any more, it’s too crowded.”

#7

Yea, I thought it was a sort of childish response myself, I guess thats what bothered me about it. And, yup, live steam is neat, but not for extended operations. I think having one would be neat, but Id get a shay or something, and just run it around here and there. Anyone have one cheap? :slight_smile:

#8

Yeah, I’ve got a 2 cylinder Shay - and it’s pretty neat. No, I’m not going to sell it do you, but, I don’t try to operate with it. Doug does up on the IPP&W, but he’s got it modified to run over an hour on a tank of gas. You still have to add water frequently, of course. It might be easier with RC, but at least it goes slow - and can handle my grades. It’s fun to run when I don’t feel like operating…

#9

Bob:

Thanks for bringing this up. I saw the same post. I believe it was in response to my asking why there was not one posting about the new locomotive on a forum that has “1:20.3” as part of its title. I especially noted that no one took issue with the ‘no electric steam’ post. I take it to mean that most folks on that forum are just not interested in “electric steam-outline locomotives”, and I will probably not participate there in the future.

For the ‘purists’ who reside there and apparently many other places, I applaud your interests and participation in the model RRing hobby. I just hope there is still enough interest in electric powered models to keep manufacturers building them for those of us who don’t have the interest, time, money and energy to only operate live steam. Too bad for all if this comes down to a ‘we have the only correct way’ mentality as expressed in that forum.

The model RRing hobby has really suffered due to the lack of interest among younger folks. I also believe we existing modelers don’t help with getting new blood in when the answer to “How do I start in (LS) model RRing?” is to tell the newbie they must spend a couple of thousand dollars, have significant outdoor space, and learn the art of live steam maintenance and operation as the only way to go.

This is along the same line as the beginner who has a loop of track with a couple of sidings, asks “How do I run two engines on one track?” and is told they must get a DCC system. Happens over on the Bachmann forum all the time. The cost, installation and complexity of DCC will certainly put many off, when a basic wiring book, a few insulated rail joiners, some DPDT switches and a second power supply can lead to quick success, new knowledge, and lots of hours of fun running trains. Might even have a convert for life!

If the minimum to participate in the hobby requires live steam, DCC and whatever the next latest and greatest (read expensive) gadget is, I confidently predict its further decline. We are sometimes our own worst enemies!!

Happy RRing,

Jerry Bowers

#10

Jerry:
I agree that we have a “its an expensive hobby” view from the outside. I’ve always held Paul Race’s view that we need to get LGB (Or Bachmann, or someone’s) starter sets into the garden departments at Home Depot and Lowes. We need cheap circles of track to be the ‘in’ from the outside.

#11
Bob McCown said:
I've always held Paul Race's view that we need to get LGB (Or Bachmann, or someone's) starter sets into the garden departments at Home Depot and Lowes. We need cheap circles of track to be the 'in' from the outside.
Totally agree. I also firmly believe that could significantly increase their garden supply sales as an added benefit.

Happy RRing,

Jerry

#12

Very Valid points all the way around…

I’m 34 with 3 kids and the 2 older ones love the trains…my buddies think they are “ok” but none of them are asking real questions…

as to the K, not interested…not what I’m looking to do. I am glad they released w/o all the stuff I wouldn’t need for my RCS control, but an Eastern Outline Engine is what I desire…or a NG Prairie Side Tank (if there was ever a sort of thing)…

alas I still revere those foreign (no Country of Origin mentioned) steamers with round portals…although I doubt any will ever run on the NBRR…unless they make their own steam…and there just ain’t no money laying around for any of that…

cale

#13

Bob and All,

I also saw that posting and brushed it off as soon as it was read. The “my way or the highway mentality” probably will never get much of a response.

I am excited to see the K. Also, hope that it brings about an EBT Mike. I may or may not get one, the jury is still out on that. But, I do know I will wait until Dave G. and others have looked it over before I make the purchase. The newest model car, also usually has a few bugs to be worked out.

#14

I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s a typical “my way’s the right way” sort of post. In the real world, the “live steam only” folks seem to be a very small minority.

As for the Bachmann K, I’m sure it’s a fine loco for those who have large enough layouts with wide curves.

#15

Curmudgeon is quite correct in what he says about young children… Now big kids, well as they say that’s a different ball game.

There are two youngsters next door he is 5 and she 7. The hang over the fence to watch the trains - they love it. They do not watch me set things up however, I carry my stock (in bread trays ) out from my garage, to a table then place things on the track. Once they hear the train noises they appear like a shot. I have a wooden mast for one of my radio aerials by the fence to which I have added a small shelf. This shelf allows me to place a controller on it and for them to operate it.

They go after a little while to the their pool or other interests but return quite often just to see how things are going and which stock is moving.   That way I am still able to run without too much questioning etc. and at the end of the day we have all had fun.

As for steamers - well that’s up to their dad to buy them; he has more money than I do lol

#16

Maybe my lack of interest in the ‘K’ is the reason I have not noted any postings that are not congratulatory to the release. I was amazed, no less, at the rather lack lustre response to the release on this forum. I expected a little enthusiasm, but the release has been met with little more than it is on show in pre-production guise.

I feel the the ‘poor’ reaction is down to the ‘its finally here attitude’. We have been waiting for some time for it to at least arrive in the preproduction guise. The waiting has been tormented by the riduculous ban on talking about the locomotive. This ban, I feel, has sapped the initial enthusiasm felt for the project. The loco will sell, but recent downturns in the price of the Bachmann largescale releases will severely limit any future releases. This loco is the make or break scenario for any future releases. I feel that apart from the curious, the majority will await news of any production related problems and the anticipated firesales in a year or two. How many paid nearly $500.00 for their Shays and their Connies and their Heislers, only to see the prices plummet within a couple of years?

The purchaser today is generally more street wise and expects a bargain. Some will definately rush out and put down their $1000.00, but at this price, one really needs to assess the market and see what comparable products are around (this is getting into live steam price range). A ‘K’ has no place in my railroad, due to its size. I am able to run smaller prototype 1/20.3 scale locomotives, but am not prepared to ‘start again’. My interest is in 1/22.5 scale. The ‘K’ will look good and when released ‘in the box’ will receive accolades of acclaim, but Bachmann really need to look at their PR machine for the way this project has been (mis)handled. The ‘K’ is a high-priority acquisition for many, so any failure to impact on the marketplace is not the fault of the consumer. The last few months frustration on the Bachmann forum, as regards no discussion of the project (from a contractual standpoint), will, I feel, seal the fate of the release. This will be a major acquisition for most and one would feel that the manufacturer would have ‘supported’ the potential purchaser in his choice. The support has been contrary to what would have been expected, even to one commenter on another forum trying to initiate a thread in condemnation of the person who fronts the manufacturer forum. This personality ‘clash’ and the consumer being left out in the dark for many months will not be the encouragement that many will need to make such a purchase. It is definately time for some new blood to drive this project to fruition, if it is to be a marketting success. If it is not, then I feel Bachmann will back away from any future major project releases.

#17

Tim,
I suspect that Bachmann had very little to do with the decision to put a ban on even mentioning the K-27! From the rumblings I have overheard it would seem that Kader is calling the shots! I very much doubt that Bachmann will ever again make such a Faustian deal without corporate masters pulling the strings regardless of the consequences! I think we’re all in agreement that the K-27 is a awfully big gamble for Bachmann which is why it is so strange that the marketing of this engine has been abysmal!! There was even a rumor going around that WE couldn’t talk about “Voldemud” (Gads! If there ever was an appropriate nickname!) or our thread would be summarily yanked! No explanations and we would be banned from the forum!!!

Of course that was probably just so much nonsense (note that I said “probably”) however it DOES demonstrate an apalling lack of marketing savvy on Bachmann’s (i.e. Kader’s) part! Am I bitter about this? Absolutely not!! I want this K-27 to totally change the perception of Fn3 modelling! We CAN have large mainline locomotives that aren’t hand-crafted brass and costing several thousands of dollars (besides, the K-27 has always been my favorite locomotive!)

How the K-27 is finally received will depend more upon it’s performance than any fancy marketing strategy. The one absolutely essential thing that MUST be done is for Bachmann to get a production model into the hands of a Beta tester so that those “niggling little problems” that inevitably creep up can be discovered, documented and (most importantly) corrected before the public discovers them and it’s reputation for reliability is tarnished! I will reserve judgement on the marketing of the K-27 now that ol’ “Voldemud” has come out of the netherworld and can be spoken of in something other than hushed whispers. I’m sure that Bachmann is chomping at the bit to get this baby launched!

One other small matter.

It has been insinuated that r/c battery people hate DCC and want to “Nip it! Nip it in the bud!!!” (with kudos to Barney Fife!) This is NOT the case! With regards to Bachmann and it’s plans, the fiasco with the “Quasinami” left an incredibly bad taste in our mouths! There were posts on the forums from people that seemed to be “insiders” that the K-27 was to be DCC equipped and that an integral part of the motor was the DCC interface making removal of the DCC component nearly impossible! While I was sure this was outrageous fantasy, I was given a “reality check” by those so informed that this is indeed the case with certain systems in O scale! Apparently, there have been proponents of DCC that have been pushing their agenda and have received some support from elements within Bachmann’s management. I am dubious but I wish them success as long as I am able to continue to have r/c battery control as an option. Unfortunately, with the 3-truck Shay this was the situation with half of the run. I understand that there will be inside canted cylinder K-27’s as well as the outside model which has been shown. I sincerely hope that the management at Bachmann (and Kader) have learned from the past and won’t make the same mistake again. DCC, r/c battery or track power…the pool’s big enough for everybody and the water’s fine! Come on in!

#18

Whaddahell is Voldemud? An expensive type of mud use in pricey spas? Maybe the name of he who cannot be mentioned… Voldemort?

#19
Steve S said:
DCC, r/c battery or track power...the pool's big enough for everybody and the water's fine! Come on in!
Yeah, just wait for the first disappointed "kid" to have a leak! :lol: ;) :lol:
#20

Steve,
the Bachmann forum ‘ban’ on discussion was a total fiasco. I personally had several postings removed for daring to make a statement. The result of this is that I very rarely venture back to the site. I can understand being ‘reprimanded’ for slandering or abusive language, but the simple removal of postings because it suits someone in the hierarchy is censorship. Some postings deleted did not even make reference to the ‘K’. I feel that the Bach-man, personally, has lost some ‘esteem’ over this situation and I certainly do not hold him in the esteem that I felt some years ago. Bachmann really need to take a long hard look at a) who they take advice from and b) how they market any future offerings. I, for one, would like to know why the three month ban on discussing new products was applied to the ‘K’, only and not to the recently announced 1/20.3 scale tankers and gondola.

     This fiasco has left a definate sour taste in my mouth and I will certainly not be supporting this venture with my wallet.   In so far as the future of Bachmann and DCC,  well,  we only need to wonder why Bachmann has not extended its DCC system further into the largescale market.  To do so would only show that those who 'are listened to' are not in touch with the real largescale market and are only pushing their own specific agenda.  Some years ago,  a local state government pushed its own agenda and only allowed automatic gearboxes to be fitted, ex-factory, from a major automobile manufacturer.  The supposed reason for this was that the automatic gearbox was more 'environmentally friendly'.  The fact that the car used more fuel than an equivalent manual gearbox model was irrelevant.    Consumers were 'forced' to buy the auto model and then retro fit manual gearboxes,  using aftermarket parts.  Sounds exactly like the current situation being lumped on us with largescale.  Someone has a specific agenda and we the consumers are not being consulted.  We already lost one major manufacturer because they beat a different drum to their consumer base.  LGB, Bachmann, dinosaurs = extinction!