Large Scale Central

Advice on distance from fence

General Discussion
#1

I am in the beginnings of putting my garden railroad outside. I have laid out the road bed and the elevation is going to start soon. I plan to raise it all up about 2 feet. Eventually I will want to build up the ground around it. The train runs near the fence so I am thinking cinder blocks on the back facing the fence, and then nicer blocks on the side facing the front.

How far should I keep the cinder blocks from the fence?

I have included some photos here of how the setup is sort of going to look. In one photo you see the roadbed with the cinder block on top near the fence. The other is near the house.

Are there better suggestions for retaining wall on the back side then cinder blocks? They seem pretty cheap.

#2

You need a gap large enough to wash or blow out and large enough critters don’t want to set up shop there. I would say 4" would be the minimum, 6" better.

Greg

#3

You need to allow for access to the track for when there is a derailment. When, not if.

#4

Steve Featherkile said:

You need to allow for access to the track for when there is a derailment. When, not if.

I should have access to the track regardless of distance from fence? The distance to the track won’t really change much with regards to the fence distance.

#5

I have a similar situation and I left enough room between the fence and track so I could walk through. I figured that someday the fence might need to be worked on and standing on the track wasn’t going to be an option. Leaving such a wide gap has given me access to the back part of the RR for maintenance and as Steve mentioned, to fix derailments.

In some spots I used cement blocks as a retaining wall. There is one spot where I once tried hardibacker board. It was cheap and thin thus giving me more room between fence and track but within 2 years it failed due to moisture making it brittle. I replaced it with bits of plywood from another project and stakes driven into the ground like pilings which is still holding.

I think more space is better to allow air to circulate so the bottom of the fence does not rot. Greg E. has good advice.

#6

After looking at your photos I had another thought. You could move the cement blocks in closer to the interior yard and have your track on top of the block. You would only need to add a 1-2 inch tall retaining “lip” to prevent ballast from falling off the edge. This could be made from cement, a metal edge screwed right to the block, or wood or composite either screwed to the block, glued to it or using pvc/copper pipe driven into the ground and a “U” bracket to hold the wood on. The wood could be made to look like a scale retaining wall.

#7

Ideally, of course you would have a normal “walkway” between the track and the fence, like 24".

This would give you great access for the trains, and any fence maintenance.

The other end is to assume you can reach all the trains from “inside” the yard, and all you need to do is not damage the fence, or have animals live there, and also have drainage, this is the 4" to 6"…

(all of this assumes the track is about 2 feet high, not waist height)

It’s clearly a tradeoff between useable space for the layout, broader curves, etc. and access.

Looking at your yard, and the work you have gone to maintain minimum radius, and the fact you have only 2’ from the ground with this, I would shoot for 6" clearance. You can still get a foot down in there if you have to, and reach down in that gap if you need to repair things.

If your height was greater, I would consider more clearance, but it seems you can reach the track from the “middle” of the yard, so making a big aisle way seems wasteful to me.

Greg

#8

I made adjustments this morning and I have now a foot between the PVC posts and the fence. I could try to build a thinner retaining wall, or if need be put the cinder blocks into the PVC posts (so the posts go up through the blocks). I could also try what Todd has suggested. It looks like I have some options and I feel comfortable that I will be able to keep drainage, critters out and the fence in good shape. I do not see reaching the back tracks for derailments to be an issue.

#9

I have the same issue of a house or fence on three sides of my very narrow confined space. i am building right to the fence with accesses from the interior. On the house side I am doing bench work so the house side is accessible. The areas where a rock wall is being built by the house I am keeping it about 24" away from the house so I can keep it clean and free of unwanted stuff. Along the fences the various rock or wood retaining walls will be built right up to the fence posts. Not ideal but I have to do what I have to do. In these cases I will do my best to keep down unwanted accumulation of "stuff between the fence and the layout retaining walls. All my access is from the interior. I have build up the retaining walls enough that trains can’t derail and go between the fence and the retaining wall.

That’s what i am doing right or wrong.

#10

My concern with a narrow gap between the fence and wall is what if something drops into that gap? Like a flat car, gondola car, your track clamp tightening wrench, or some other item that you don’t want to loose.

#11

Can’t tell for sure from the pictures but if your using 8 inch block consider changing to 6 in. A couple inches is a couple inches.

I would think if your going 2 foot high leave a minimum of six inches as Greg suggested any narrower and your going to skin your leg up trying to stand in that space even with one leg, and you will eventually need to no matter what your “plan” was.

Looks like 2 foot high is going to put you well above where your fence boards are nailed/screwed to the lower stringer, may want to think about that.

At 2 foot high (3 blocks) how are you going to stabilize the wall to support the back fill? Are you planning on “dry stacking” or mudding the joints? Are you pouring a concrete foundation or just bedding in sand or native soil? How are you planning to fill the cells; concrete, gravel, dirt, nothing?

All the above and more should be considered when piling a bunch of dirt against or near a boundary fence your neighbor may not love it as much as you do if it creates premature failure of a shared fence or collapse onto their property.

Just some thoughts

Rick

#12

Rick makes some good points above. On my raised garden beds made out of cinder blocks, we used construction adhesive, in place of mortar to secure them to each other, they’ve held up well since 2006.

In the pic above, with the block next to the fence, access to the lower stringer may not be Nicolas’ problem. The smooth side of the fence is facing his yard, stringer side to the neighbor. Most municipalities require smooth side to face your neighbor, the fence may belong to his neighbor, and it looks fairly new, so maybe in 20 yrs, it may need to be replaced.

#13

Rick Marty said:

Can’t tell for sure from the pictures but if your using 8 inch block consider changing to 6 in. A couple inches is a couple inches.

I would think if your going 2 foot high leave a minimum of six inches as Greg suggested any narrower and your going to skin your leg up trying to stand in that space even with one leg, and you will eventually need to no matter what your “plan” was.

Looks like 2 foot high is going to put you well above where your fence boards are nailed/screwed to the lower stringer, may want to think about that.

At 2 foot high (3 blocks) how are you going to stabilize the wall to support the back fill? Are you planning on “dry stacking” or mudding the joints? Are you pouring a concrete foundation or just bedding in sand or native soil? How are you planning to fill the cells; concrete, gravel, dirt, nothing?

All the above and more should be considered when piling a bunch of dirt against or near a boundary fence your neighbor may not love it as much as you do if it creates premature failure of a shared fence or collapse onto their property.

Just some thoughts

Rick

I tried both types of cinder blocks but will likely just use 6. I haven’t given too much thought as to what I would do for stacking them. I was thinking of dry stacking them though. I am open to suggestions. I have almost a foot in most places to work with.

#14

Mike Wlez said:

Rick makes some good points above. On my raised garden beds made out of cinder blocks, we used construction adhesive, in place of mortar to secure them to each other, they’ve held up well since 2006.

In the pic above, with the block next to the fence, access to the lower stringer may not be Nicolas’ problem. The smooth side of the fence is facing his yard, stringer side to the neighbor. Most municipalities require smooth side to face your neighbor, the fence may belong to his neighbor, and it looks fairly new, so maybe in 20 yrs, it may need to be replaced.

Was construction adhesive simpler? Cheaper?

The picture above I do believe the stringers are on the neighbors side. I do have some stringers on my side for the other fence though.

#15

Yes, definitely easier and less expensive. A tube of liquid nails runs around $4 a tube, whereas mortar will set you back $11-15 a bag. You want to make sure you have a good, level, well tamped base before you begin, so it doesn’t move with moisture or frost. I’m at work now, but I can post a pic later, when I get home.

Definitely stagger your joints, makes for a stronger wall. These boxes are about 20 inches tall, 3 courses with a top plate. First course is underground as a base, and they were laid on a sanded and tamped surface.

#16

I built a similar wall last year for a raised planter burm, wall on just one side.

I actually dug a trench 8-10 inches deep and back filled it to 4 inches deep with compacted sand then laid the three courses of block (dry stacked no morter or glue) then filled in the remaining trench. I ended up with 2 1/2 block height above the grade.

Be sure to stagger your courses for more stability, you can buy 1/2 blocks to fill in at the ends, or place them in a block or two from the end for more stability.

What I did then was cut 1/2 inch rebar 3 foot long and drive in into the ground in about every 3rd cell and fill those with Sackcrete and filled the remaining cells with gravel. Probably overkill for what you want to do but it will stay put.

Here is a shot of the back side, I added a couple inches of gravel for walkway after the fact which bedded the blocks even better.

Another good thing about dry stacking in a planter like this is good drainage, the water can seep out the joints and not build up pressure behind the wall.

Good luck with your project.

Rick

#17

#18

Dang Cuz, that’s pretty!

Nicolas, I left enough room to just step behind mine. Maybe six inches or so. I probably should have left more room though. For the side next to the fence, I used pressure treated wood and cement board. The stringers I used for support were not pressure treated so, I coated them in flexseal. No troubles in 3 years. This was the method Mike Dorsch used and his layout has been in operation for 10 years…if I remember right.

#19

Matt Russell said:

Dang Cuz, that’s pretty!

It sucks and rebuilding but slowly …only showing Nicholas tight to the fence pics that’s all.

#20

Chiming in a little late here…

That’s a view of my layout, raised about 12", showing the ~1’ gap between the raised bed and fence on two sides. I wouldn’t advise having any track sections that aren’t within relatively easy reach–you never know when or where a leaf, or frog, or whatever is going to cause a derailment. They’re somewhat difficult to see, but I have stepping stones strategically placed so that I can walk within 3’ of any section of track to re-rail cars, nudge locomotives, or just get a visual check of the rails.

D