Large Scale Central

Accucraft cr*p in our hats....

General Discussion
#1

I am SOOOO mad!

Almost two years back, I put my name down for a set of the Accucraft smoothsiders from the best delaer in UK, whose name I won’t mention. Most of the Accucraft players in UK know and trust him with their orders, and he has a well-deserved reputation for fair dealing and unbeatable prices.

However, due to circumstances entirely beyond his control, I may well be cancelling my order due to Accucraft hiking the prices by a whopping 20% per car, to $300 vice $250.

That might not seem much to you in the USA, but over in yUK that translates to over £500.00 on a set of six, since the yUK price seems to work out at a pound per dollar plus the inevitable increase in taxable duty.

IF this new price - on items that have been pre-ordered, but not yet delivered, mind - is a fact, then I will be cancelling my order.

tac in Port Orford OR, fuming.

#2

Hank;

I know for a fact that you are NOT “Mad”…Very Upset, quite possibly (Understandably) but NOT Mad…

Fr.Fred

#3

Well I recall in the 1980s to buy the Hornby Flying Scotsman here was around $300Au. Today I can buy the Hornby Flying Scotsman for $300au, same price 35 years later, including coaches and an engine with detail and drive way above what the model had back in 1981 or so.

Tac, we’ve all just gotten too accustomed to what China has done for us in the last 15 years and now we get angry when prices start to rise. 15 years ago you could not have bought those coaches for $300 ea at that quality, but it seems unreasonable now. That China prices and wages are rising is only a good thing in the long run. If more countries got off their arse and did like China to make life for themselves better the world would be a better place all round - they actively built a new world for themselves while the rest of the 3rd world just wants to run off and go to Europe rather than look at what they can do for their country to improve it. I think we all just need to accept we enjoyed a 15 year ride of amazing models at low prices and those low prices are rising. Its fine, they earned it. Back to our older ways of really deciding do we want it, or save for something else, rather than ‘have it all’.

Thanks Tac, its annoying I know, but its not unfair.

Oh, when I note 15 years, thats really when largescale from China came of age, prior to that (about 10 addition years), the stuff wasn’t real good despite being cheap!

Thanks mate,

David.

#4

David, I understand what you say. Still, a contract was made. Accucraft offered those items at a specified price, the offer was accepted, and the order made. That is a contract, no matter how you want to parse it. Now, Accucraft wants to back out of the contract that they are a party to, elevate the price, and expects the other party to just bend over, take the swat, and say, “Thank you, sir, may I have another!”

Poor business practices, if Accucraft wants to continue in business. If Accucraft is an ethical company, they will honor their existing contracts, and raise the price only on new orders.

#5

This could go before the UK Trading Standards Office or the Fair Trading Office if UK customers were to push it - when a ruling would be made

about the pricing. On the other hand…Accucraft may honour the original deal price to pre orders. I await the outcome with interest.

#6

A thought…

It may be that “put my name down” is not the same as “ordered and paid for” and that in the eyes of Accucraft, the dealer, and the law, there is no “Contract” in effect. I suspect that those who put their names down were still free to wander off and not complete the purchase without fear of liability. That suggests there was no contract.

If there WERE a contract (with the dealer, I suppose) you could conceivably insist that the dealer make good to you and then they would have to pursue the alleged breach by Accucraft.

But it is maddening when prices rise without warning and by a lot. 20% over two years, that is. Sounds like, at a minimum, communication could have been crisper as in the dealer saying: “THis is a reservation only. We will make best efforts to fulfill these orders at then-available prices when available, to the reserved customers in sign-up priority” That would have, I hope, allayed the frustration you are feeling now.

My 2 pence.

#7

20% is a fair amount (you need to look at all transactions as percentages, not the absolute dollars), 10% is usually where most people will not balk. If I bought a bottle of milk and it went up $5 that would be terrible, but an expensive train going up $5 is no big deal. I know you won’t agree to this, but cost increases really should be viewed as a percentage of the total price.

So, if you DID have a contract to purchase at a fixed price, that is wrong. If you merely reserved them, and the intended price has changed.

Therefore, I would examine the offer, how it was expressed. If it indeed was a contract, I’d be unhappy if it went up 20%, but many things have gone up 20%… 50% or 100% would be cause for extreme ire (you have a whole country over there that is upset I suppose)… (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-sealed.gif)

Greg

( ire-land for those who missed it)

#8

Dont know about you guys, but I sure wont be held to offer a service at a price 2 years old unless someone paid a deposit or paid in full up front. A lot changes in two years. You set your pricing based on the costs of the day, two years later things change. Lots across the board has gone up massively in 2 years. Heck our power prices here have gone up about 150% in 2 years, and I was in a contract! Its life and our world, get over it. Things are moving in China and it aint all bad. Its a good thing people there are getting paid for their work nowdays, not the $2/day of the early 2000s. In fairness I know for certain Accucraft have held pricing for the 2+ years in the past and been hurt for it.

David.

#9

I would think that a little communication would have really helped in this situation. Let the people on the reserve list know that; due to increases in material and manufacturing costs that the price has gone up. Let them know ahead of time and then allow them to have their name taken off the reserve list, if they so choose.

But if they prepaid, or paid a deposit, then it would be considered a contract and could be considered binding.

In my case I had ordered something based on the “current price” of the item, USA metal wheels. When I got the call that they were in, I expected to pay the price I had previously paid of $2.00 per pair of axles. When I went to pick them up, I was charged the price of $5 per pair of axles, since the price had gone up. Now if the lady at the LHS had told me that the price had gone up, and what the price was, I would have been prepared for that, and had enough cash with me to pay for the order. As it was, I had to put the order on my credit card, and I vowed that I would never deal with that shop again. Just a little communication would have saved that shop at least one customer (me).

#10

Today is June 15th. Considering nothing from Accucraft on this site referencing Steve’s, Gregg’s, David’s, Ross, Michael, and now my comments, is unfortunate. Tac reported his experience to us on the 12th.

Steve (above) is correct - an agreement for both product and price was made and then broken. That is a contract for purchase and delivery based upon mutual reliance.

At the very least a comment from Accucraft would be helpful if not appropriately courteous.

This thread likely will be another example of company management permitting a public evaluative assessment without any company response. The last example (aka, Aristo-Craft) accrued hundreds of comments and readers – yet no company comment. Nothing. And the speculation, conjecture, and personally similar citations rolled on.

#11

Wendell, I believe that Accucraft pretty much has a policy of not posting on forums. I cannot remember the last time either Cliff or Fred has posted on any train forums.

So, while we can discuss it here ourselves, there should be nothing inferred about a lack of response from them. USA Trains has a similar policy.

Regards, Greg

#12

Greg is correct. The guys at Accucraft don’t spend time on the forums and for the most part have no idea things like this even come up. I know from buying brass in both N scale & 1:20.3 that when I reserve an item I go into it knowing full well the price can change. That’s the world of high end brass, costs change but the demand is still strong for that product so the price has to go up to meet that cost, that’s the price for dealing with Japan, China & Korea. This is a common statement you see when reserving a brass model. “Prices subject to change”

All that being said I still feel your pain and know what its like to budget for something then find out later the price went up.

#13

I find the thought that a manufacturer/importer/seller would ignore their customers by not joining in to the very forums and websites that, in many cases, announce and review their products, is mind-boggling. It is the height of arrogance to do so. They don’t need to join every small blog and website, or personal website that discusses their products, but they should stop into the majors, like this site here to at least have an idea of what’s what in the industry.

Another problem I’ve found is the “I don’t give a damn” attitude a lot of the dealers have a train shows and expos. Sometime you can’t even ask a question because they are chatting and schmoozing with other dealers, completely ignoring the buying public! They act like they’re stars and you are lowly fans that don’t deserve to be given the time of day. This is not true of all dealers/manufacturers. etc., but it is prevalent enough to make you wonder what experience they have dealing with customer service and public relations issues. I think this ties into the first paragraph in that the stand-offish arrogance is very off-putting. What would they do if we all acted as arrogantly as they do and stopped communicating with them; in the form of keeping our money. Maybe that is the reason that some of these companies have gone out of business recently. Maybe consumers are just getting tired of their desires being ignored.

If companies have a policy of “no comment” when it comes to communicating with their customers, maybe we should quit communicating with them as well!

#14

Andrew, there’s more to it than the simplistic “you are arrogant”.

Many of these companies don’t have the staff to frequent these sites. Also, sometimes doing battle, and even winning means a loss.

Not to defend all dealers, but you need to look at the larger picture.

Also, it’s not a “no comment” situation, it’s just that they don’t have the time/horsepower/wahatever to do battle on the forums.

You need to realize also that most of the people posting on forums have problems, very few people post “oh, I have xyz loco and it’s great” every so often? No, it’s my bachmann drive gear split… my USAT axle split, my Aristo wheels spun on the axles, Accucraft did not make this detail right, etc.

As a last thought, look at how much YOU are lashing out, look at the number of times you accuse them of being arrogant… have you CALLED or TALKED to any of these people yourself? I have. I don’t have the same opinion as you.

Call Fred Devine, Cliff at Accucraft… go talk to Charlie Ro (Jr. or Sr.)… let me know what THEY say.

Greg

#15

Here’s a simple fix to all your questions. 510-324-3399 ask for Cliff.

The back and forth here is great for venting but that’s all its doing. Get it straight from the man himself, he will give you straight answers.

I also know these guys and while I understand your anger you have it wrong when it comes to the Accucraft staff.

#16

Ross Mansell said:

This could go before the UK Trading Standards Office or the Fair Trading Office if UK customers were to push it - when a ruling would be made about the pricing. On the other hand…Accucraft may honour the original deal price to pre orders. I await the outcome with interest.

Ross/Tac - If your order is with the dealer I think it is then their terms on advance ordering are pretty explicit and up front on their website. As it is, in this instance no contract exists, unless an invoice for goods has been issued to that effect. If it were then UK retail sale of goods act would be enforced regarding “offer to treat” as in the displayed sale price. But it seems there is no contract in force.

I think most of us ordering recently announced product to ensure our name is “on the list” accept that price indicated is only for guidance and events can radically change pricing, from any source, from announcement to production. A bit of an annoyance on a a big price ticket but not totally unexpected. At least the dealer I buy from is always clear about this and I build in a certain factor for this when budgeting. Max.

#17

Err...  

  1.   I never said I had ordered anything from Accu...I have not.

2.  I was making an observation of possible action by the Trading  Standards Authority or the Office of Fair Trading in the UK , who could be asked to act if necessary.

#18

I am interested in the outcome of this only from the standpoint of good business. While maybe not a legal contract “on paper” contract, when a company offers a product for sale and I agree to buy it and the only reason said company has not received their asking price is due to their own ability to deliver the product at that time and back orders it, then they should honor the price. I don’t believe it is an ethical business practice to back order something then raise the price on it. Back ordering product is a terrible thing.

Back ordering products is always a sticky situation. I will say it is far better that Accucraft puts people on a wait list instead of asking for money up front and then not delivering. However, when a company offers a price and a buyer steps up and is willing to pay that price and you cant produce the item for two years and then raise the price on them I think they have a right to be upset.

I don’t believe the issue is rising costs most people expect that. If I looked at it two years ago and it was 250 and I didn’t buy it then and it was 300 today well then its my fault for not getting then. That isn’t the case here. The increase is fine for a new customer.

#19

No way did Accucraft give a firm price 2 years ago, now if a dealer did that’s on them and they never should have. This is starting to sound like a dealer issue than a Accucraft issue. I’m not commenting again after this post, this is not worth losing friends over.

#20

Ross, I think Max just did not read carefully or from the beginning of the thread, we all clearly know it was not you that was mad at Accucraft, nor was it you that made the order, and your wording of “if necessary” was clear.

Max, when emotions are high, and opinions start to polarize, it’s important to be very careful and re-read the thread to be sure. Since no verbal tonality can be “heard”, not any body language can be “seen” in these posts, it’s easy to get the wrong idea.

Even then, not all people communicate and interpret in the same way.

In any case, I’m sympathetic to TAC that the price went up 20%, no one wants that. This is not an “economical” hobby though, and to expect something 2 years later from a small company and tied to China to not have changes, well, that’s just not realistic. Also given history, no one has ever announced a product and 2 years later it is LESS, especially given the smaller market today as compared to 2 years ago.

Greg