Large Scale Central

A tale of two houses

Warren -

You said - “Wow, Ric! We now know where you stand…”

I’m sorry there was a doubt or you didn’t understand my feelings before my last statement. I’ve always tried to be very clear in my feelings. I had to sit through a Rotary Program listening to a young marine biologist expound on how she was doing her part to “save the world” by getting government grants to recycle secure financial papers. She admitted that her best training in marine biology was learning how to write government grants. She was very proud of how she had gotten 7 - 60k grants over the last 5 years. During the question and answer period I asked her when would she think that her company would be in the black and contribute to society. She looked at me with the most stunned expression and asked “Why in the world would I ever want to make money, instead of getting grants from the Government.” What a great example of what she got out of her marine biology education.

With that story - I hope you can understand my opinion on universities and higher education and especially the social sciences. It follows close in line to my opinion of many officers and especially most Academy Graduates.

Never doubt that the greatest benefit of our ridiculous legal system is that it is making a lot of lawyers wealthy and then, of course, you know what you call a bad lawyer? Your Honor. (That statement is actually a quote from a very successful lawyer)

To give this a railroad related subject, I feel the Heisler, Climax and Shay were invented by individuals that experimented with machinery to create a better product. I don’t think their objective was to create a hysteria to convince people that their way was the only way. They were just trying to make their job of transporting a product easier, cost effective or more efficient.

I do feel sorry for people that worry so much about the future and do not have the FAITH of understanding what their future holds.

Ric Golding said:
SNIP To give this a railroad related subject, I feel the Heisler, Climax and Shay were invented by individuals that experimented with machinery to create a better product. I don't think their objective was to create a hysteria to convince people that their way was the only way. They were just trying to make their job of transporting a product easier, cost effective or more efficient. SNIP
Ric, I respectfully disagree.

I think it was more likely the designers of the Heisler, Climax and other gear driven locomotives, came up with the engineering solutions to the transport problems that the Shay helped solve, more because they had to find a way around the patents held by Shay, than for the reasons you cite.

Warren ,
I largely agree with you . I have to because I am fat .
The emphasis in our respective countries’ media may well account for your non observation of skin cancer . i.e. , my lot are panicking ,yours aren’t
But I have to say that the global warmers will put about any scare to stop people flying to vacation spots , so they are almost certainly behind the skin cancer scares .

Ric ,
I agree , some people have selfish agendas , most politicians do not know what selfish means . So from that , you may gather that politicians ain’t people

In general , these climate change wierdos are spoilers . There is a mob of them camped outside London Airport right now (causing no end of security problems ) . I wish I could repeat all of the daft things I’ve heard coming from them . I did not believe that people could be so stupid
One example stands out .
A large 747 took off . This odd creature in a woolly hat with greasy uncombed hair threw herself hysterically (and theatrically ) to the ground writhing and screaming " My babies , it’s killing my babies " An apparent reference to any future offspring she may have should someone get drunk enough to mate with her . She should be so lucky .

Ta Ta ,

Mike

A rebuttal for Tony

So there’s Claude Climax and Harry Heisler sat munkin about some ratbag who’s patented a type of loco .
“Eureka” shouts one of them (alas history is not sure which ) " We must each design a loco specifically to get round Sid Shay’s Patent trick " and off they troll to their respective garretts and after a few furious scribbles , come up with a few designs which might work . Anything rather than pay that shylock shay bugger a penny . And so , two clever men outwitted the dimwitted shayman .

OR

Two engineers are sat drinking and a Shay loco trundles past . As they do .
Harry (of Heisler fame) says to Claude ( of Climax fame ) "What a curious way of running a railway . I can do better than that " .
Claude , not to be outdone , and fed up with sitting drinking , says "Yer on " .
And so , in the fullness of time , three types of geared locos were produced by three clever men . All because they wanted to advance the cause of science and technology .

Which explanation do you prefer ?

A footnote —

When the Health and Safety Sherriff saw the unguarded gears on the Shay , he said "That’s too dangerous , stoppit . " After he was told to pee off , he went to see his green friends and said " There’s a nutter up the road with a loco thingy , and would you believe , he is going to burn wood in it , making smoke and killing our grandchildren . And , get this , he is going to use it to help cut down the rainforest . "
Oh , the humanity !!!
So they got a posse together , all of like minds , but because they all were vegans , they could not stay in the room with each other (well , think , blimey ) So they held their meeting in the open , gassing passing ladies of a quiet disposition , but this led to their plans being overheard by Sid Shay who was basically a decent chap , and he told Claude and Harry about it and said " Look , I’m too busy selling my locos , so why don’t you two design a couple more so’s these parasites can’t kill them all at once ? "
"Good thinking , Batman " said Claude .
" Hot doodies " said Harry . He couldn’t think of anything else to say and didn’t know Batman so left it at that .

Never say that this site is not educational .

Mike

Tony,

Your disagreement is taken with respect. But can we agree that the engineering skills were used to resolve a problem or get past a patient right, not as a solution to take tax dollars from other people through a government mandated program? I do not want to come across as being against anyone learning something new or improving their skills or knowledge, but forced or mandated ways of thinking are not part of a free society.

I have not read as much on the Climax or the Heisler as I have on E. Shay, but I believe Shay built his engine to accomplish a goal, get lumber out of the forest. It was not to steal tax dollars or force all railroads to switch to his way of resolving his problem and banning rod engines or any other forms of dragging logs out of the woods. I doubt if scare tactics, mandates and ridicule of other ways of thinking were part of the goal as much as getting the product to market and letting people make their own judgments through price or efficiency.

Ephrim Shay developed his early engine largley in isolation to service the local logging industry, the resulting sidewinder design was initially built at Shays own factory. Shay had the market locked for a few years but when demand started outpacing his factory others saw an opportunity, His engine which coupled two vertical cylinders on the side of the engine, coupled via driveshafts and gears to power all wheels, and the offset boiler, were unlike anything in the history of railroads to date.

The Climax locomotive company also developed their Class A model as a result of local logging demands for an engine that like the Shay, could run on the crapola ROWs prevelant in the logging industry, many of the the class As were often pole road engines, something Shay couldnt make. The design was pure backwoods engineering at its best, a flatcar with a boiler, a small 2 cylinder marine engine coupled via gearing to archbar trucks that allowed all wheels to be powered and to have the tractive effort of the engine spread more efficiently than a rod engine and to have a greater tractive force for its size than a conventional rod engine could provide. When the demand for a larger engine was called for they simply took the marine engine, split it into two cyliders arranged like a conventional loco but linked to a small flywheel that connected via gearing to the drive shafts. It was a logical offshoot from the Class A, if you look at early Class Bs with horizontal cylinders this is apparent.

The Hiesler was an offshoot of the Dunkirk. Dunkirk realized a shortcoming in the class A Climax design, and that by taking the two cylinder marine engine, splitting into a V format, they could house a larger boiler and bunker, downside was they had to produce the V-motor instead of simply buying one from a marine supplier. They didnt last long…but the idea did, enter Heisler, which took the Dunkirk concept, added a whole lot more engineering and produced the Heisler engine we all know today. The Heilsers set up was more effiecient at transfering power to the wheels than the class B was as in was a more direct routing.

You have to remember Shay, Climax, and Dunkirk, all developed their systems, to meet a similar demand, each started to service the local demand then spread more widely, and eventually in direct competition with each other. Helsier was the latecomer to the table, not to mention Baldwins oddball geared loco, with the cylinders under the boiler.

Victor,

Thanks for the quick history lesson/review. I have no reason to challenge your accuracy, nor debate your theories or reasoning or that of the companies involved. Interesting that you did not mention government intervention, grants or contracts. Do you think it is possible that it was done purely to improve the business and/or the industry? Holy Cow, is it possible that it was done without some politician trying to create fear or exagerations to promote his ability to get on a talk show circuit? Wonder how many lawyers were involved? I’m sure it was cussed and discussed over a beer or three at the local establishment. Maybe a fist or two was thrown when there was a disagreement about the merits of the adventure. But I doubt if people lost much sleep or changed their lifestyle drastically because of the temperature in August that had been hot in the Northern Hemisphere all their lives.

Wonder how that one sheet of toilet paper thing is working out for that one gal? I guess, I really don’t want to know. :wink:

I still like my idea of getting a gummint grant to study the demise of the yellow breasted twit bird as a result of global warming. Who is with me?

Kevin likes to quote gummint “scientists” (Most “scientists” are bottle washers and button sorters. L. Long, ca 2340.) and disdains bloggers. I like to quote bloggers (Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of – but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards. The phrase “we (I) (you) simply must–” designates something that need not be done. “That goes without saying” is a red warning. “Of course” means you had best check it yourself. These small-change cliches and others like them, when read correctly, are reliable channel markers. ibid) and tend to disdain gummint “scientists.” On that, we will never agree.

I agree that the world is coming out of a mini Ice Age that started in the 1300’s or so. I’ve often wondered why the Navies of the 18th and 19th centuries wore heavy woolen coats while at sea, when I did not need to until I reached the far northern latitudes. The answer, it was a lot colder, then. Is global warming necessiarly a bad thing? No. I think that it is to be preferred to the coming Ice Age that was predicted in the 1970’s, by these same people.

A degree C of warming is not something to be overly concerned about. We will find a way to adapt. We have before. To consider that mankind is somehow responsible is arrogance at its best. THe way that the kool aid drinkers want us to approach the problem is to go back to a pre-Industrial Revolution society, while leaving China and India free to do as they please.

How is that again? I missed something.

Today, in Deer Park WA, in mid August, the hottest part of the summer, it is in the low 70’s and raining. Caused by man made global warming, no doubt.

Mike, we don’t have to worry about the airline industry in this country. Here its fly, fly fly. The airline industry needs more money??..take it away from the railroads. In the US mass transit and passenger rail service is a dismal failure…raped by our government…so the airline industry can survive. They used to rape the freight railroads to benefit truckers but that seems to have backfired. Rising fuel prices have dealt truckers a serious blow. TOFC, (Trailer Of Flat Car) which at one time was dying, is making a comeback and freight rail traffic is booming.

In America it’s all about hidden agendas and who has their hand in who’s pockets.

Steve Featherkile said:
Snippety, snip, snip..............................

Today, in Deer Park WA, in mid August, the hottest part of the summer, it is in the low 70’s and raining. Caused by man made global warming, no doubt.


Steve,

Too bad - or just as well - that us “old geezers” won’t be around in fifty years, eh? Can you imagine listening to the “good old days” stories of the early century? And everyone else having another groan because

a) it is so hot

b) the crops are on the wane … yet again!

c) no decent skiing in the winter

Note: the above covers what I’d be complaining about, because I like distinct seasons, I like good food and I really like to XC ski.
Leave it to “industry” and things will be “just dandy”.

Hey, we were at a party yesterday and the subject of “Two Buck Chuck” came up. From what I gathered it is one nifty way to market surplus California wine at rock bottom prices.
Holy batman! It tasted just like it, too. I don’t know, but the stuff I use for cooking wine tastes a lot better.
OTOH at US$2 a bottle, buy a case or two for the weekend, the pain will go away and “Monday, Monday” will be as true as ever. :wink: :lol:

Now they are talking about growing wine like that up North in Prince George in the “not too distant future”! Wonder where they’ll get decent water to brew decent beer. Or will they destill the lousy wine into perfect water, add one or two ingredients to make it “taste better” and start brewing.
I’m doing an ice and snow dance quite soon now! :wink: :slight_smile:

Warren Mumpower said:
...........

In America it’s all about hidden agendas and who has their hand in who’s pockets.


Warren,

I heard you’re running out of space to hide all the agendas, “they’re mushrooming!!!”, “they’re mushrooming!!!”, “they’re mushrooming!!!”

Small wonder, what are you feeding them?!!?

(Sorry couldn’t resist!) :wink: :slight_smile:

PS At that party last night, well everyone up here seems to be from “somewhere else” . One lady relates the story of being in a lineup at a potluck and things are “just splendid” with everyone having a “FOT”. They all discuss where they’re from, this one lady has a real Southern drawl.
“Oh, I’m from Georgia.”
“What brought you here?”
“BC Bud”

Not a mention of wine, beer or peach schnaps.
:wink: :slight_smile: :wink:

It’s the people that are turning into mushrooms…with the government keeping us in the dark and feeding us bullsh*t!

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
Snippety, snip, snip..............................
Steve Featherkile said:
Today, in Deer Park WA, in mid August, the hottest part of the summer, it is in the low 70's and raining. Caused by man made global warming, no doubt.
HJ said:
Steve,

Too bad - or just as well - that us “old geezers” won’t be around in fifty years, eh? Can you imagine listening to the “good old days” stories of the early century? And everyone else having another groan because

a) it is so hot

b) the crops are on the wane … yet again!

c) no decent skiing in the winter

Note: the above covers what I’d be complaining about, because I like distinct seasons, I like good food and I really like to XC ski.
Leave it to “industry” and things will be “just dandy”.

Hey, we were at a party yesterday and the subject of “Two Buck Chuck” came up. From what I gathered it is one nifty way to market surplus California wine at rock bottom prices.
Holy batman! It tasted just like it, too. I don’t know, but the stuff I use for cooking wine tastes a lot better.
OTOH at US$2 a bottle, buy a case or two for the weekend, the pain will go away and “Monday, Monday” will be as true as ever. :wink: :lol:

Now they are talking about growing wine like that up North in Prince George in the “not too distant future”! Wonder where they’ll get decent water to brew decent beer. Or will they destill the lousy wine into perfect water, add one or two ingredients to make it “taste better” and start brewing.
I’m doing an ice and snow dance quite soon now! :wink: :slight_smile:


And things will be much like they were prior to 1300 or so when Leif Erickson colonized Greenland, and had a thriving colony, there, too!

We will just have to move a bit farther north to get our ski fix, is all.

Where I come from, 2 Buck Chuck costs closer to $3.00, and is not all that bad, but then, I like Annie Greensprings, too. :lol:

You can grow good wine grapes wherever you can grow apples. I think y’all have been growing apples in your haller for quite a spell, now, haven’t you?

We may have a Mediterranean climate here in the Pacific Northwest. That wouldn’t be so bad, would it? We could ski in the Alps. :smiley:

Perhaps we could distill bad wine into decent Port. Or Brandy.

I plan to still be skiing in 50 years. I said I was planning on it…

I just looked at the thermometer and it was 52 F. Bitter cold for this time of year.

For those who don’t mind a different point of view, try THIS.

The truth of the whole matter is that both sides have agendas that are not in the best interests of the masses. The reality…we’ve all been screwed again…!!

Warren Mumpower said:
The truth of the whole matter is that both sides have agendas that are not in the best interests of the masses. The reality...we've all been screwed again..!!
And we didn't even get kissed!

Sigh.

Tom Jefferson said that a little revolution is good for the country, now ant then. Vive la revolution! I think that means “Let’s party.” At least it did when I was in college. :smiley:

My un-named co-conspirator sent me an interesting site to read. It describes some of the places that weather guessers take their measurements from. It also causes me to wonder about the accuracy of some, or perhaps all of these weather intel sites. Somehow, a weather site in the middle of an asphalt parking lot does not seem to make a whole lot of sense, now does it?

Steve Featherkile said:
.........................

Somehow, a weather site in the middle of an asphalt parking lot does not seem to make a whole lot of sense, now does it?


Sure it does

“They paved paradise and put up a parking lot” :wink: :smiley: Joni Mitchell in “Big yellow taxi” (1970)

Sheesh Steve, don’t you remember that?? :lol: :lol:

just to add a little more fuel to the fire…

"Debunking the gullible warming Gorons
(EDITOR’S NOTE: This is a talking-point summary of developments regarding global-climate trends that have been collected since we published a comprehensive essay on the topic, “Global Warming: Fact, Fiction and Political Endgame”, in February of this year. That original essay has been revised and updated to include the new information in this summary.)

Correcting the record

Most of the evidence concerning U.S. temperature trends is collected by NOAA’s National Climatic Data Center, which gathers information from about 1,200 weather observation stations across the nation. These stations are small wooden sheds with thermometers, which are read at intervals, mostly by volunteers. Many are located in sprawling urban and industrial centers, known as “heat islands,” and are subject to higher readings than stations in rural areas where temperatures are subject mostly to “land use effects.”

Most of the recent global-warming alarmists use 1998 as the benchmark for the hottest year on record, but it turns out that their reporting is flawed, the result of a math blunder.

In fact, 1934 was the hottest year on record, and four of the ten hottest years in the U.S. were recorded in the 1930s. The second hottest year on record was 1998, but the third hottest was 1921, not 2006. Notably, six of the ten hottest years occurred prior to 90 percent of the economic growth associated with increased greenhouse-gas emissions.

H. Sterling Burnett, a senior fellow at the National Center for Policy Analysis, reports, “Much of the current global-warming fear has been driven by [NASA scientist James] Hansen’s pronouncements, and he routinely claims to have been censored by the Bush administration for his views on warming. Now that NASA, without fanfare, has cleaned up his mess, Hansen has been silent—I guess we can chalk this up to self-censorship.”

New climate reports

In the winter of 2007, NASA satellites indicated that water temperatures in the Gulf of Alaska were dropping, suggesting that cooling Pacific waters may be a precursor to the reversal of a 30-year warming trend. The cooling resulted in the coldest season of Arctic air the lower 48 have seen in more than three decades.

Additionally, Reuters “News” Service reports, “Australian scientists have discovered a giant underwater current that is one of the last missing links of a system that connects the world’s oceans and helps govern global climate. New research shows that a current sweeping past Australia’s southern island of Tasmania toward the South Atlantic is a previously undetected part of the world climate system’s engine-room.”

This, of course, raises an all-important question: How can the climate debate be “settled” if we still don’t know what we don’t know?

Climate modeling

The computer models cited by Albert Gore and company are outcome-based, depending on how a programmer varies some of the five million input parameters or the multitude of negative and positive feedbacks in the program.

Scott Armstrong is a professor at the University of Pennsylvania’s Wharton School and one of the world’s foremost experts on long-range forecasting. He is author of “Long-Range Forecasting,” the most frequently cited book on forecasting methodology.

Armstrong and Kesten Green of New Zealand’s Monash University examined the IPCC’s report, and, at the 27th Annual International Symposium on Forecasting, they concluded, “Claims that the Earth will get warmer have no more credence than saying that it will get colder.”

Armstrong bet Gore $10,000 that he could provide a better climate forecast than that of the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, which Gore cites regularly. “The methodology was so poor that I thought a bet based on complete ignorance of the climate could do better,” said Armstrong. “We call it ‘the naive model’.”

Gore’s office replied, “Please understand that Mr. Gore is not taking on any new projects at this time.”

The warming Solar System

As it turns out, there are some other planets in our solar system which are experiencing global warming—and these planets don’t have SUVs.

Mars is getting hotter. NASA scientist Lori Fenton reports that the Red Planet has warmed by around one-half degree Celsius in the last three decades, which likely contributes to the retreat of Mars’s southern polar ice cap.

According to Habibullo Abdussamatov, director of space research at St. Petersburg’s Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia, “The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars. Man-made greenhouse warming has made a small contribution to the warming seen on Earth in recent years, but it cannot compete with the increase in solar irradiance.”

On Neptune, MIT researchers say that planet’s largest moon, Triton, has heated up significantly since 1989, when the Voyager space probe sent back readings from the planet. Astronomer James Elliot and colleagues from MIT, Lowell Observatory and Williams College report, “At least since 1989, Triton has been undergoing a period of global warming. Percentage-wise, it’s a very large increase.”

Imke de Pater and Philip Marcus of the University of California, Berkeley, report that Jupiter is growing a new red spot. “The storm is growing in altitude,” de Pater says, which indicates a temperature increase in that region. The researchers think that, near term, the temperature on Jupiter may increase six degrees Celsius in large areas.

University of Hawaii astronomer David Tholen and his colleagues report that even though Pluto was closer to the Sun in 1989, they are not surprised by a warming that began this year. “It takes time for materials to warm up and cool off, which is why the hottest part of the day on Earth is usually around 2 or 3 p.m. rather than local noon,” Tholen said. “This warming trend on Pluto could easily last for another 13 years.” They predict Pluto’s temperature will rise two degrees Celsius before its next cooling trend.

The Climate Inquisitors

If you are a scientist, politician or journalist, and refuse to comport with Albert Gore’s eco-theological orthodoxy, you’d best put on some body armor.

Speaking to Al Gore’s minions during “Live Earth: The Concerts for a Climate in Crisis,” Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., said of political leaders who suggest global warming is not predominantly manmade, “This is treason and we need to start treating them as traitors.” Junior added, “Get rid of all those rotten politicians we have in Washington, DC.” We presume his bloated uncle is excluded?

The University of Oregon’s George Taylor is that state’s official climatologist, but Gov. Ted Kulongoski wants to strip Taylor of that title because his skepticism about CO2 as a primary factor in global warming interferes with Oregon’s goals to reduce CO2.

Elsewhere, the Weather Channel’s Dr. Heidi Cullen is demanding decertification of weather reporters who dare question global-warming orthodoxy.

Academicians who express their skepticism about global-warming causes are at high risk of losing research grants. Conversely, those who advocate for CO2 causation are in line for some big-money handouts. Thus, when academicians say “green,” they aren’t necessarily referring to the environment.

“Journalist” David Roberts is setting his sights on the “denial industry,” proclaiming, “When we’ve finally gotten serious about global warming, when the impacts are really hitting us and we’re in a full worldwide scramble to minimize the damage, we should have war crimes trials for these bastards [read: ‘skeptics’]—some sort of climate Nuremberg.”

Nonetheless, some of the most ardent global alarmists are starting to change their tune. In 2005, Chris Mooney wrote “The Republican War on Science,” a thorough indictment of the GOP’s attempt to discredit scientific work on climate change. When he started research for his latest book, “Storm World: Hurricanes, Politics, and the Battle over Global Warming,” he assumed it would be more of the same. Then, after meeting with leading climatologists, he concluded, “There’s a wide range of respectable positions here. In the end, I had to write a completely different book.”

Quote of the week
“The world meat industry produces 18 percent of the world’s greenhouse-gas emissions, more than transportation produces. A gallon of Ben & Jerry’s ice cream requires electricity guzzling refrigeration, and four gallons of milk produced by cows that simultaneously produce eight gallons of manure and flatulence with eight gallons of methane. The cows do this while consuming lots of grain and hay, which are cultivated by using tractor fuel, chemical fertilizers, herbicides and insecticides, and transported by fuel-consuming trains and trucks.” —George Will"

THAT’S IT…!! If cows became extinct it would solve global warming…:slight_smile:

I’m so proud of myself…:wink:

This was in the “The Patriot Post” today…

OPINION IN BRIEF
“There’s a reason why one should be extremely wary of the computer models that are cited by the endless doomsday predictions of Al Gore, the UN’s International Panel on Climate Change, and all the other advocates of ‘global warming.’ The reason is clouds. Computer models simply cannot provide for the constant variability of clouds, so they ignore them. In a July issue of The Economist an article called ‘Grey-Sky thinking’ was subtitled, ‘Without understanding clouds, understanding the climate is hard. And clouds are the least understood part of the atmosphere.’ Since the increasingly rabid claims of Earth’s destruction from rising temperatures depend on computer modeling, how can they be regarded as accurate if they must largely exempt or deliberately manipulate the impact of clouds? How can you make predictions, whether it’s a week or a decade from now, if you haven’t a clue why clouds do what they do?” —Alan Caruba