Large Scale Central

3-truck Shay and issues

Reviews
#41

If you want a choice whereby you can choose between DC , DCC and either plus sound , why the blazes do people keep criticising LGB for doing just that ?
I must stress here that I am only talking of the Euro outline stuff , and the White Pass outline .

I can go into my local suppler and buy the basic loco , fit a decoder and a sound system , all made by LGB (nominally) , it works , and costs less than the full monty . And is simple to fit .
It (almost) goes without saying that this does not quite fit in with those who choose a ready to fit R/C system and expect it to work , though it can be done , given some technical knowledge .

Mike

#42

But, for a time, iit was MTS mandatory on-board.
BTDT.
They learned their lesson just before the big “B”.
And, if you want something that only comes with pre-programmed sound, you’re stuck if you want real-time.

Look at the premium asked for “with sound”, and see what a good aftermarket system you can program to do what you want costs.

TOC

#43

Thank you for the replies. That was a far better eplanation than I have found on the internet. I’m going to hold out for the vanilla version. There is a real arrogance by some that think we are going to be interested enough in their toppings to go to their website and read all the tripe to find what we want. Strange how people want to keep telling me how to enjoy my hobby. Enjoy DCC if you wish, but quit trying to force it down my throat.

#44

I agree Ric.

Mike, you will never hear me complain about plain vanilla locomotives from LGB or anyone else. I love my Genesis just the way it came. I added a Phoenix sound system to it and I’m as happy as a bedbug. My LGB 2050 White Pass Alco is the same…a basic locomotive with a Phoenix soundsystem and I love it just as it is.

Even though we get in the “it isn’t to scale” discussions, “it isn’t prototypical” discussions, and various other “discussions” about our trains, it boils down to one basic fact, “We all want our stuff our way”. And the easiest way for the manufacturers to do that is to provide a basic, generic locomotive that runs well and allow us to customize it to meet our needs. The “shake the box” crowd will have a good looking, well running product and the rest of us will be as happy as a pig in a mud wallow customizing to our hearts content.

#45
Mike Morgan said:
If you want a choice whereby you can choose between DC , DCC and either plus sound , why the blazes do people keep criticising LGB for doing just that ? I must stress here that I am only talking of the Euro outline stuff , and the White Pass outline .

I can go into my local suppler and buy the basic loco , fit a decoder and a sound system , all made by LGB (nominally) , it works , and costs less than the full monty . And is simple to fit .
It (almost) goes without saying that this does not quite fit in with those who choose a ready to fit R/C system and expect it to work , though it can be done , given some technical knowledge .

Mike


Mike,

Short memory?

The choice of barebones came back after enough people screamed blue murder about having to pay for a crappy onboard decoder that was way overpriced.
Prior to that you’d get a factory fitted decoder, unfortunately there was no telling what you got in any given engine unless you opened up the “puppy” and had a look - and knew what distinctive physical features you were looking for. Enough to drive people squirrely!

Only last week one guy on a German forum wanted to know how to interface a standard (better) decoder with the onboard MTS decoder and still use the LGB sound. Wellllllll in their infinite wisdom LGB/Massoth changed the interface of the onboard to the sound from a straight forward “hook up to these pins” to a “Now what??” scheme.

That kind of nonsense is part of the reason why I buy used stuff on eBay, alway making sure that I don’t get any of the new fangled stuff. I hate to pay money for stuff that is subpar and needs to be tossed!

#46
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
BIG SNIP

That kind of nonsense is part of the reason why I buy used stuff on eBay, alway making sure that I don’t get any of the new fangled stuff. I hate to pay money for stuff that is subpar and needs to be tossed!


…and I am convinced that the majority of LS’ers do not want to either.

#47
TonyWalsham said:
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
BIG SNIP

That kind of nonsense is part of the reason why I buy used stuff on eBay, alway making sure that I don’t get any of the new fangled stuff. I hate to pay money for stuff that is subpar and needs to be tossed!


…and I am convinced that the majority of LS’ers do not want to either.

After being burned, I’ve learned to wait until the second or third factory run for a product before I even think about ordering one. That way I have a better chance of getting one with most of the bugs worked out. It doesn’t gaurentee it, just enhances the chances. I also tend to stay away from evil-bay.

#48

I can agree with your logic on the 3rd generation of products for bug’s sake, but Evil bay is my second home…:smiley: I don’t think I’ve ever really gotten burned. It’s harder now to get a good deal, but not impossible. Evil bay is an excellent place to get things that are no longer available…and sometimes those things slip by everyone else and I can get a really good deal. One of my better deals was the catenary that I purchased several years ago. Yes, it cost me about 500.00 but I got 48 masts that now retail at discount for $20.00 plus the wires and suspension hardware and a dozen multi track beams that have been unavailable from LGB for years. This was a goldmine just waiting for someone that ran electrics. There’s a lot of other stuff on Evil Bay that there is about the only place you will find it.

#49

I guess the part that I am most “disquieted” about would be the statement that “Sierra is near the end of it’s life.” I don’t know if this is Stan’s personal opinion or something else. Tony disagreed which helped but I would like to hear something difinitive from somebody that works at Soundtraxx!! I know that they have spent years in research to get this Tsunami technology right and I now know that what is in the Shay isn’t their final Tsunami product for largescale (as originally envisioned!) What will happen is now starting to worry me! I’d definitely like some kind of response from Soundtraxx!

#50

Hans ,
I do not have a short memory in the context to which you refer . Short pretty well everywhere else , but not there .
Someone must have done some good market research for LGB in the UK , because I have always had the choice between with sugar , with sugar and cream , or just plain black . I found pretty well the same in Germany , Austria and Switzerland , except for the speciallly marked ones for local interest only-------now , if you want to criticise THAT as a marketing clanger , I will back you all the way . I saw (and bought ) stuff in Germany and Switzerland that I did not know existed . Lucky me , I go there for holidays . But the number of sales and possibly customers that LGB lost because of the stupid policy of "we are only making this available in Upper Swaziland , Second District , Fourth Palm Tree Along " must run into hundreds .

Mike

#51
Mike Morgan said:
Hans , I do not have a short memory in the context to which you refer . Short pretty well everywhere else , but not there . Someone must have done some good market research for LGB in the UK , because I have always had the choice between with sugar , with sugar and cream , or just plain black . I found pretty well the same in Germany , Austria and Switzerland , except for the speciallly marked ones for local interest only-------now , if you want to criticise THAT as a marketing clanger , I will back you all the way . I saw (and bought ) stuff in Germany and Switzerland that I did not know existed . Lucky me , I go there for holidays . But the number of sales and possibly customers that LGB lost because of the stupid policy of "we are only making this available in Upper Swaziland , Second District , Fourth Palm Tree Along " must run into hundreds .

Mike


Mike,

The very loud complaints regarding the “buy what we produce” (with onboard and/or factory installed decoder) were loud and clear out of NA, DE, A and CH. The majority of people use NMRA-DCC, not some strange variant with subpar features called MTS/MZS.

#52

Destruction of the hobby, by the hobby. Great!

#53

Mike, there was NO WAY to buy a NEW Bumblebee Mogul last year or two without MTS and their sound fitted, mandatory. Just for one.

#54
Ric Golding said:
Destruction of the hobby, by the hobby. Great!
Ric,

It looks like those with a bit of experience prefer to buy the barebones version, then they add what they find suitable. That applies to straight DC (adding sound and/or converting to battery) as well as DCC (give us a simple DCC ready interface that complies with NMRA-DCC RP and let us do the rest i.e. decoder and sound of our own choice).

Of course in LS like in the smaller scales there are those who need to be spoon fed e.g. they want a simple solution that they can take out of the box, pluck down on the track and run. If the hobby involves thinking as in, how to adjust CVs etc. etc. it is apparently already too much for a hobby. Or at least that’s the impression I get when reading certain posts in a number of fora. :wink: :slight_smile: :smiley:

#55

To be honest, as I see it here in the US the trend in all segments of marketing seems to be a “we will tell you what you want to buy and you’re stuck with it” mentality. Unfortunately the majority of people in this country are satisfied with someone else telling them how to live their life. I’m seeing it from the grocery store to home improvement…to buying a car. Speaking of the latter, I’m so sick of being told what shade of grey I want my interior that I’ve lost all interest in new cars. I went to Home Despot and Lowes last night to look at ceiling tiles for the basement. Forget it! Lowes had a couple styles for drop in ceilings and Home Despot didn’t even bother with a display. Take what they have or nothing. I chose nothing! It’s no surprise that our hobby is taking the same attitudes :frowning:

#56

Yup.
I am on several model railroad forums, in several gauges/scales.
I have run into that on one forum, where the scale/gauge has historically been builders.
Try to encourage youngsters, and even the old-timers jump down your throat.
They buy what is offerred, plop it on the track and run it.
I would much rather, in that scale/gauge, buy a 50-60 year old sand-cast bronze loc and rebuild it to make if function perfectly.

They brag about their DCS and TMCC and all of that, I tell them I can do things their systems won’t, guaranteed.

They don’t get it.
They think an nmra gauge is the “answer”, yet they seem to never have heard of a 3-point gauge for curves.

TOC

#57

Dave , Hans ,
I am beginning to suspect that there is a very different approach to making variants of LGB available in different locales . I actually had a basic Bumblebee kept by for me by my supplier because he thought I would want it . As I do DRGW in 1/20.3 , and don’t mix scales ,I turned it down . Perhaps I should have got it for its rarity . I did not open it up to see if it had been gutted , I hardly looked at it at all . Very pretty . It seemed a bit small to me . For all I know , it could have been the Accucraft one , but I don’t think so . It wasn’t that expensive .
Another thing that makes me wonder about the marketing in the USA is the falling out I had with someone on another site who insisted that I could not have bought an item because it was a USA exclusive .
There is a shop in Switzerland which I visit as often as I can afford it that specialises in selling " exclusives" from all over the place .
So , maybe there is a set of rules which are not , or were not followed . I am not about to name dealers , but I do know that I can get pretty well any LGB variant that I want , not all from the same place , but certainly all the ones I have wanted have been obtained . I do not try to buy every LGB item going , odds to the legpulls in the past , I can’t afford to for a start .
So perhaps there has been some unofficial dealing , who knows ?
BTW , I do like the look of the new models , and the repaints .
Dave , I agree about the encouraging of youngsters , some of the “older” so called “model railway fraternity” ought to be downright ashamed of the way they sneer at newbies of all ages , especially the youngsters . The “you don’t want to get THAT one sonny” remarks do a lot of damage . If a lad wants to buy something for starters , and thinks it’s pretty , leave him be , don’t worry about the scale , he’ll grow into that .

Mike

#58
Curmudgeon said:
Yup. I am on several model railroad forums, in several gauges/scales. I have run into that on one forum, where the scale/gauge has historically been builders. Try to encourage youngsters, and even the old-timers jump down your throat. They buy what is offerred, plop it on the track and run it. I would much rather, in that scale/gauge, buy a 50-60 year old sand-cast bronze loc and rebuild it to make if function perfectly.

They brag about their DCS and TMCC and all of that, I tell them I can do things their systems won’t, guaranteed.

They don’t get it.
They think an nmra gauge is the “answer”, yet they seem to never have heard of a 3-point gauge for curves.

TOC


Sigh, ain’t’ it the truth… When I started to get back into Model Railroading, I wanted to do three rail O gauge because I had a lot of it left over from my father’s stash in the late 20’s and early 30’s and the stuff I had from the early 50’s to mid 60’s. The attitude at the LHS was “Why?” “Nobody does O-gauge Lionel any more.”

So I dabbled in HO, and got disgusted trying to make a return loop bomb-proof, and went back to 3-rail. Still have my stuff, my dad either threw away or gave away to some jerk kid all of his really good stuff. My stuff, when properly maintained and shined up runs just fine, thank you. It runs better than the new stuff that I have purchased in the last decade or so. But, this is not a 3-rail forum, so I’ll stop my rant, now.

SteveF

#59
Mike Morgan said:
Dave , Hans , I am beginning to suspect that there is a very different approach to making variants of LGB available in different locales . I actually had a basic Bumblebee kept by for me by my supplier because he thought I would want it . As I do DRGW in 1/20.3 , and don't mix scales ,I turned it down . Perhaps I should have got it for its rarity . I did not open it up to see if it had been gutted , I hardly looked at it at all . Very pretty . It seemed a bit small to me . For all I know , it could have been the Accucraft one , but I don't think so . It wasn't that expensive . Another thing that makes me wonder about the marketing in the USA is the falling out I had with someone on another site who insisted that I could not have bought an item because it was a USA exclusive . There is a shop in Switzerland which I visit as often as I can afford it that specialises in selling " exclusives" from all over the place . So , maybe there is a set of rules which are not , or were not followed . I am not about to name dealers , but I do know that I can get pretty well any LGB variant that I want , not all from the same place , but certainly all the ones I have wanted have been obtained . I do not try to buy every LGB item going , odds to the legpulls in the past , I can't afford to for a start . So perhaps there has been some unofficial dealing , who knows ? BTW , I do like the look of the new models , and the repaints . Dave , I agree about the encouraging of youngsters , some of the "older" so called "model railway fraternity" ought to be downright ashamed of the way they sneer at newbies of all ages , especially the youngsters . The "you don't want to get THAT one sonny" remarks do a lot of damage . If a lad wants to buy something for starters , and thinks it's pretty , leave him be , don't worry about the scale , he'll grow into that .

Mike


What has the above to do with “Give us the basics, provide the information and keep things consistent”??? At least that’s the essential point of this discussion in my opinion.
Goes along with giving accurate product descriptions - this applies to most of the LS manufacturers - so that one doesn’t get “interesting” little surprises such as “Sorry, but that function is only available with …”. After all not everyone wants to read the complete manual in order to find out what the real facts are. That is if the manual actually reflects the real facts!

If and how dealers get the “exclusives” is none of my concern, when I write of variants what is referred to are the dumb mutations that certain mfgs seem to delight in.
If, as has happened in the past, LGBoA has no inkling of what is or isn’t fitted in a product, one can hardly expect the dealer (large or small) to know, despite him being the first in line to answer the consumer’s questions.

But for a change it isn’t about LGB, it is about Bachmann who “goofed” on this one. Or at least that’s what some of us think when we look at the facts.

#60

Hans ,
Dave quoted the "bumblebee " as an example of what you couldn’t get .
Mike