Large Scale Central

3-truck Shay and issues

First, I’ve been working with these for almost a month trying to get an okay. While working on print reviews, I cannot read any others. Now I have permission to publish it: This procedure addresses one area of concern. The wires from the power plug for the third truck are not strain-releifed sufficiently. This is very apparent in non-dcc versions, but also apparent in some dcc versions. Inspection indicates if both wire bundles are wedged under the decoder, the problem was minimized, but even then, vibrational issues with the locomotive bouncing through frogs can cause issues at the board as indicated below. This procedure is written to allow the consumer to enact strain reliefs on the wiring harness from the third truck where these wires enter the locomotive main body and attach to the circuit board. Remove fuel bunker. Two screws, in rear corners of bunker, accessible from under unit. Lift bunker at rear and unclip front from chassis. Set bunker and screws aside. Inspect wires along left rear side, or fireman’s side. (see attached photo).

These are 8 wires in a row from the back of the board forward on the left. Not the wires along the back. Make certain all wires are attached without pulling on them. Hot glue the wires, both the bare wire and the insulation (important) to the board.

Allow to cool for a few minutes. The attached photos show the front 4 wires hot-glued, the back 4 not hot-glued so you can see the difference. Now, obtain a small, narrow tie-wrap. On the floor of the locomotive, at the rear, you will see the two wire bundles in flexible tubes coming through. There is a small piece of black tape around these wire bundles where they cross each other. Remove the tape. Ensure the wire bundles are moved so they are both roughly the same length from the locomotive to the third truck end of the harness where the plug is. Move them as needed. Run the tie-wrap through one side slot at the very front of the end beam, under the center brace dividing that slot from the slot on the other side of the loco. Using hemostats or tweezers, grab the end you have fed through and pull up through the other slot (these are left and right of centerline). Press wire bundles down to floor, remaining crossed, place tie-wrap over the top of these, insert end of tie-wrap into locking end, pull end and move tie-wrap and wires and necessary until both wires are tight against floor and tie-wrap it tight.

Cut off end of tie-wrap extending past the locking end, being careful not to cut any wires. There are several places and ways to tie the bundles to the floor. Whatever works best for the consumer. Re-assemble shell onto locomotive, test run. This procedure, written and photographed, plus the intellectual data contained herein are copyrighted and may not be re-printed without express permission of the author. NorthWest Remote Control Systems.

Dave,
Thank you for posting this. It explaines why the wire for the water tender light was broken when I received it. I wasn’t concerned as I have since overcome that by installing the R/C and batteries. A strain relief is still necessary and that will be my next endeaver. Nick Jr

Dave, if you have a DCC one, can we get a picture of the sound board? Mostly curiosity.

Thanks, Greg

Very careful here.

I do have a sound one, but it no longer has a sound decoder in it.

Waiting.

??? Ok, treading carefully.

“sound one” should equal DCC, if we are talking factory equipped.

So no chance of the decoder? Mostly curious to see if it has heat sinks “strong enough” for other LS locos, or it is built with Tusnami “technology” while not technically a “Tsunami” decoder.

so, did I tread carefully?

Regards, Greg

No visible heat sinks.
8 motor driver components, at least two have little dots through the circuit board look like “5” on dice.
One would surmise these function as “heat sinks”.
3" long, 1-3/4" wide, 1/2" tall.

4 screw terminals on one end, 6 wire plug on the other.

Limited functions, no possibility of an external chuff trigger.

Have a problem (in the 90-day warranty period), don’t call Soundtraxx.
Call Bachmann.

Dave ,
I ain’t got one yet , not even seen one , but it’s damn decent of you to come up with something like the above . Nicely done .
Mike

Thanks Dave!

Maybe could be the precursor of the production Tsunami 4 amp unit. You should be able to do 4 amps w/o heat sinks if they are dissipating heat through the board’s copper, at least for a while.

My understanding is that they are a special OEM run for Bachmann.

Regards, Greg

Yes, OEM for Bachmann.
Good post on the Bachmann forum:

http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/read.php?f=1&i=184440&t=184440

Greg, I e-mailed you last night, ever get it?

TOC

No! Might have gotten swallowed in spam filter, please send again, the spam folder does not automatically empty, will check it… [email protected]

Nice to see that post on the Bachmann site… I got grief from several forum members for saying the LS Tsunami would not be out in January, was guessing June because SoundTraxx said they were coming out with the HO diesel units before the LS 4 and 8 amp units… not wanting vindication… actually want the LS decoders in the worst way.

Regards, Greg

Greg Elmassian said:
....................................

Nice to see that post on the Bachmann site… I got grief from several forum members for saying the LS Tsunami would not be out in January, was guessing June because SoundTraxx said they were coming out with the HO diesel units before the LS 4 and 8 amp units… not wanting vindication… actually want the LS decoders in the worst way.

Regards, Greg


LS 4 and 8 amp units.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm … how much does the Bachmann OEM version handle? 4 or 8amp??

Greg Elmassian said:
Thanks Dave!

Maybe could be the precursor of the production Tsunami 4 amp unit. You should be able to do 4 amps w/o heat sinks if they are dissipating heat through the board’s copper, at least for a while.

My understanding is that they are a special OEM run for Bachmann.

Regards, Greg


I can’t see dissipating 4 amps on the copper board, just gut the thing and RCS it. Why is it that everything(not just Bachman) needs some sort of band aid to work reliably? Its like were buying stuff out of an infermary, patched up to get it out the door.

Wow, I must of got up on the wrong side of the bed

Nah, it’s just that you (like a lot of us) don’t see the benefit of this pseudo-Tsunami OEM Bachmann DCC unit as being better than what we already have! I have puposely kept quiet about my perceptions of this Soundtraxx stop-gap measure but no more! The more I read about it the more disquieted I become!
I’m not a DCC proponent but I can see where one could become one! My problem with this unit is that it’s NOT a Tsunami! It’s something else and it’s deceptive to use that name when describing it. Worse still, it seems apparent that there has been some major quality control problems as the wiring is not properly soldered OR anchored virtually insuring product failure sometime in the near future! Add to this the fact that Soundtraxx says it’s for Bachmann to answer problems and Bachmann says to call Soundtraxx as nobody knows exactly what the unit is supposed to be able to do!!
Also, the cuff rate and sound as delivered are all wrong and need an extra device in order to change them (for additional $$$ of course!) Starting amperage is somewhat suspect as well.
Why Bachmann felt the need to push this on us now I don’t know but it appears that they rushed it into production with “glitches” and all! I worry that this “new” technology and the attendant problems that will inevitably occur could backfire on Bachmann with repercusions for the large scale hobby! I do hope that I am wrong about this…

Steve,
I would go so far as to say Bachmann is using deceptive and misleading advertising to promote their DCC Sound On Board®.

On page #11 of the latest issue of Garden Railways Bachmann claim to be, …“introducing engines equipped with Tsunami® Technology”.

Whilst Bachmann will likely claim that the ad doesn’t say that it is exactly Tsunami I contend that the intention is for the consumer to believe they are getting a full blown Tsunami® as sold by Soundtraxx® in the smaller scales.
That is deception by omission (of feature listings).

Nowhere on page #11 does it say the the DCC sound decoder being fitted is a stripped down version of Tsunami®.

To top it off, at the bottom of the page is a “DCC Sound On Board” logo and immediately beneath it Tsunami® is repeated.
I believe a casual observer is likely to be deluded into thinking they will be getting a proper Tsunami® DCC decoder with sound.

I think TOC’s idea of naming it “Quasinami” is spot on.

Steve, Tony, All:

I agree with your assesment of Bachmann’s DCC + sound installation in the new Shay, but at least it’s optional. They could have made them all with the ‘pseudo-Tsunami’ or ‘quasi-Tsunami’ board and we would have been forced to pay the extra for something that appears to be virtually unusable to battery / RC users. Several of the smaller scale engine manufacturers as well as quite a bit of LGB equipment have gone that way.

I am amazed that SoundTraxx would attach the Tsunami name to the stripped version provided in the Bachmann locomotives. It can only lead to confusion with a good probability of loads of bad publicity regarding what is supposed to be their newest, greatest premier product. Or is it? For example, will (real) Tsunami systems ever have chuff contact inputs, or is what is in the Bachmann locomotives all there is? Maybe what we see now is all they are ever going to provide. Otherwise, why put money and effort into developing the premier name / identification, then screw it up with a half baked version?

Then add the “You have to talk to (insert other guy’s name) for support”. That’s how companies lose customers and eventually wind up out of business. It’s just crazy. Even more so when you consider that these are new items employing new technology that will require close support in the early days.

Is it correct that neither Bachmann nor SoundTraxx sell the required programmer? If so, just plain dumb and as you wrote potentially damaging to the LS hobby. Even if Bachmann or SoundTraxx sell the programmer, it is a real negative to have to buy a separate item to make it work correctly when the chuff rate could have been factory set. Can any say greed? Or perhaps stupidity?

I also wonder how long we’ll be able to get the Sierra systems. I am very happy with mine and expect to get several more as my railroad and motive power expand. Will the crippled version Tsunami supplant the other systems and wind up being the only option?

If these folks are serious about this business, there has to be a plan. Either that or they are just fooling themselves along with their customers. Looks like some poor decisions on someones part.

Happy RRing,

Jerry Bowers

A little more.
The “documentation” states that while the maximum track voltage for the decoder is 27V, a number that is being tested this weekend to confirm, the maximum TRACK voltage is 21V.
Tell that to the Bridgeworks users, eh?

And I have been corrected.
“Undertow” for the back-emf should be “backwash”.

Jerry, I can’t fault Bachmann or SoundTraxx for not making a DCC controller, there are plenty of them out there.

But for people who run DC, and bought this to run on DC, the decoder should have been set up properly in the first place in my opinion, or the loco should have been sold as DCC only. Now, for someone with a DCC system, it just takes a few tweaks it seems, but, the buyer should be aware before purchasing of the extra cost to tweak it to the expectations the name “Tusnami” brings.

Does the Bachmann site make it clear which roadnames are available without the decoder?

Regards, Greg

I was repairing a LGB Chloe for the local hobby shop today when the owner showed me a HO Tsunami spectrum engine. He is mad because the thing won’t run correctly on a DC MRC pack. It takes off like a rabbit or studders. In the directions it says unless it is run on pure filtered DC it might not run properly. For best performance use DCC. There goes half his market. Its hard enough to convince people to spend $200 on HO stuff. I put a Broadway Limited on the track and it worked flawlessly off the MRC pack. He has a high return rate with the B-stuff and told me he was taking one last chance with a 3 truck. He just shook his head when I told him what Dave was finding.

I have been reading this forming and WOW its amazing how a little information can be twisted. You are all giving the little old ladies that gab on the porch a bad name.

Tony

I know you produce fine proprietary radio control equipment but I found your post especially troubling. As a manufacturer you have a responsibility and your post really went way over the line.

I wonder, how many of those on this forum know what exactly is is different from the Bachmann Sound on Board Tsunami and a Soundtraxx Retail Tsunami or even have experience with either. Said another way what makes a decoder in the Tsunami family and what differentiates this from other sound decoders. The sound files are the same Tsunami sounds and the mixing technology are the same and much different from other brands. Do each and every feature need to be identical to be called a Tsunami? I think not. Most but not all the feature set is the same. Will the Soundtraxx retail Tsumani decoder have even more features. The small scale Soundtraxx Tsunami decoders have some features not found in the Bachmann units and one would expect that this will carry over when they release their large scale products.

(btw Soundtraxx Tsumani decoders have the same voltage specs as the Bachmann Sound on Board Tsumani unit)

An installed DCC decoder with sound for less then $100. Gee seems like a value to me.

I have great respect for the members of the Battery Mafia but I find it sad to see the posts I am seeing. I do understand that a DCC on Board product is not that useful for you. But why try to trash a product that is useful to others that you will never use?

I am a proud member of the 1:20.3 mafia and I give Bachmann 5 thumbs up for releasing yet another fine product that will be a good addition to my railroad. I also founded NMRA DCC and my wife is in the business so yes I enjoy running my outdoor railroad using DCC. I also use batteries with DCC and live steam.

Will I stay with the factory installed Bachmann SCC Sound on Board Tsumani decoder. For now yes as I have a lot of more important work like converting my Accucraft cars to run well. Eventually I will likely swap out the decoder for a much higher end unit but that is because I enjoy this type of thing.

Stan Ames
A happy user of the Bachmann 3 truck Shay