Large Scale Central

Will Large Scale increase its market share?

General Discussion
#41

I seem to be what keeps being referred to as the “new” target market. My wife and I saw a large layout at a Christmas operation in the smoky mountains. We both thought a train would be neat in our large garden at home. We don’t know anything about “operations” and at this point don’t really care but building a scale city and countryside with a LS train running thru it sounds like a fun hobby and would look neat in the garden. First shock, the price of track and that alone about stopped this idea. There is a large price range of rolling stock, buildings, etc and you can decide what level you can afford to spend but you can’t do anything until you have track to run it on.
You will invariably spend an increasing amount on things once you’re immersed in a hobby or project but you have to first get involved with it. Maybe full-line mfg’s need to look hard at their track pricing, lowering those prices would help to stop scaring off new entrants to the hobby. Try the cell phone company model give the phone away to hook the customer. Don’t try to make money off the track, make it off of everything else once that new customer is hooked.

We are at 2 years of interest but haven’t laid a foot of track outside. Buying what I can when I can and trying to get enough track to start by next spring. Hint; always looking for a good deal on track or switches, etc.

We have one of those starter Bachmann sets and it will be the first thing run outside once the track is installed and in time we will of course replace it and undoubtably with a lot more expensive equipment.

The second big downside is the death of the hobby shop. With a store were you have the opportunity to see & touch product and ask questions how else can you learn? A picture on the internet doesn’t cut it and the mfg won’t even send you a catalog for free anymore! I haven’t found a single store in the entire state of Missouri that carries any LS product. Makes it hard for a newbie to find his way.

This forum has been my schooling so far and without it we would have given up on this idea a long time ago.

I guess my future success or failure rests with all of you!!!

#42

In this day and age I’ve said it once I’ve said it a million times “Evil Bay is a place to buy, but NOT to sell!!” if you watch wait, and have some patience!! So I guess we will let the “Gazzillionaires” buy their stuff, and those of us who are staying with the hobby, but who cannot afford the high prices of hobby shops and such, “online” great! “EVIL BAY” “PRICELESS” The Regal

#43

Jim,

Sence you live is southern Mo, you should look up the Ozark Garden Railway Society @ http://www.ogrs.org/ Also there is a hobby shop in Grandview, Mo by the name of Show Me Model Railway Company that has large scale trains, go here @ http://www.showmelines.com/ Hope this helps…

#44
  1. You want it cheap?
  2. You pay one way or another.
    No LHS anywhere near. That is because of 1.
    That is called the free market. The big boys do their best to get rid of the little players, and when they are all gone they dominate the market and set their own prices.

There is cheap track available. Look for Aluminium. It will work with track power. Sort of.
It is perfectly good for battery power.
Battery powered locos and Aluminium track can add up to a lot less cost than either brass/SS plus track power.

#45

To all:
Tim (above posting), per his thoughtful analysis, makes a point: Loss of quality = loss of opportunity.

LGB openingly pushed quality as a crucial customer decision point.

The overall image quality of large scale products is a problem since the “bullet proof” LGB image is no longer marketed. I remember LGB’s videoed “young scientist” in a white coat fishing out the Stainz loco from the acquarium in their LGB promotion video and showing it continued to run. Equally memorable are the LGB trains seasonably in store windows relentlessly making 10 hour circular trips around a tight circle of track. The LGB label was prominently displayed.

The McDonalds in Buena Park, Ca, still has the LGB trains in the ceiling. Management claimed years ago that was the “only brand they thought would hold up.”

Do the current manufacturers solict the department stores and offer their trains to make the same endless dizzy road trips around a tree in their store front Christmas windows

I doubt it.

I think quality dictates promotion opportunity.

What promotion will occur outside of Garden Railways by our current manufacturers?
The “Train Around The Tree” still has meaning – it only needs to be once again implemented.

Wendell

#46

I think that most manufacturers (and one in particular) is doing this downturn in sales to themselves by raising track prices thru the roof. Sure the engines and most of the rolling stock is really a good deal but when folks check out the track prices they back away. Hey, I could use at least 750’ more of stainless steel track but at $7.00+ per foot am I willing to spend at least $5,000.00 for track…NO!! Am I willing to get into the battery powered realm…NO!!

Seems to me that certain manufacturers are relying on track sales to increase the bottom line and make up for poor quality control in other “areas” such as engine assembly/design.

Doesn’t it seem strange that track prices shot skyward after LGB went broke?

I heard that brass track prices are going to shoot skyward after Jan. 1 2010…just in time for the buy 4 get one free deal!!! Personally I think that I’ll stay indoors and quite possiby get back into O Gauge.

#47

Chuck I sure hope your wrong about track prices, they already are pretty high. I’m lucky in that I have all the track I’ll ever need, bought before San Val went away, but any potential newbies are going to vaporize if track prices go any higher, its really insane what some manufacturers must be thinking…

Is it just me or does it seam that most major manufacturers are gearing thier future product lines to cater to already well established large scalers? or is it that they are trying to establish a “pay as you enter” club metality? Just wondering…

#48

Yep they are betting on your going track power and they don’t care about costs as they all know that most people are track powered and therefore you need brass or ss or aluminum track to be able to run their products. Track is an essential, and that’s where they are going to target the price, on the ones who haven’t found Battery RC or are expanding their existing track powered layouts!! as they will run on metal banding and wood rails or plastic if necessary or cheapie track. I foresee a great movement to more people coming to the “Dark Side” so to speak more so in the future than ever before!! So thats why they are raising the heck out of brass and stainless track. And those of us that want to expand our rr’s too!!! The Regal

#49

If thats true Jerry then the best way around the manufacturers high prices would be to build your own track, and in that I see a serious hole. Namely that newbies more than ever are interested in mainline model railroading (1/29 scale for aurguments sake) and there-in lies the rub. In my experience these guys want not only realistic looking models, they also want realistic looking track, thats where handlaying track falls short, as you would still have to buy rail, brass, Alum, or SS from someone so they still can charge whatever they want for them. As for homemade track from metal bar, or similar alternative material, the homemade alternative track I have seen, while being fine for poor little narrow gauge lines :wink: certainly falls short of realistic 1/29 scale, not to mention building switches, crossovers etc. So until someone has a realistic alternative to the rails, theres no real alternative. We have to get our rails from somewhere. maybe extrude your own?

#50

I am not one of the ‘enthusiastic children’ or a follower of the “Emperor’s new clothes” camp, but the cost of track issue has been done to death. Rising track prices was as a result of the commodities market, simple supply and demand. The manufacturer in question had previously completed a two-year supply deal with its Chinese manufacturer, seemingly oblivious to the rising cost of copper on the world market. When time came to negotiate a new deal, around the ‘fall of the German empire’, the reality of current day prices for base materials hit home. Result was a doubling in track prices.

For the last twelve months or so, China has been stockpiling base materials. This has caused a further upsurge in commodity pricing. If any think that rail will miraculously drop in price, over time, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, going really cheap.

To sum up, there was no market collusion to profit from the fall of Lehmann. Prices were the result of people gambling on commodities. Think pork belly futures!!!

#51
Wendell Hanks said:
What promotion will occur outside of Garden Railways by our current manufacturers? The "Train Around The Tree" still has meaning -- it only needs to be once again implemented.

Wendell


Agree, and while I have been considering this all without comment, I believe Bachmann stands to gain the most from all of this…IF they will get out there and work to become the “new” LGB! (not speaking of Fn3 stuff here-simply Large Scale) They offer the lowest price initial investment to get up and running…and now they have Thomas, and Percy. Today is the time to run with the ball Jack and friends! The 4-6-0 sets are still a great deal for what you pay (and the quality is there too-albeit a little less rugged than LGB) and the new Davenport sets are a steal as well. Track is an issue, but hook them first on the idea…

…again, I believe Bachmann has a head start here…and I wish HLW could get into the game as well with a Mack set (non-army) and a few 4 wheel cars, or one of the smaller locos.

An insert with all starter sets explaining with nice outdoor color photos of what can be done would really entice folks too!–this point has been made a million times, but warrants a mention again!

cale

#52

Yes Tim I’ll conceed that it may be simple supply and demand, but that still doesnt change the prices are still thru the roof and not likely to come down anytime soon. So I’ll stand by my view that track prices may end up becoming large scale’s Achilles Heal.

For my On30 layout, I can quite literally buy all the code 100 HO track I’ll need for my entire layout about the same as one premium large scale turnout, thats a formidable factor for guys like me to consider.

#53

I don’t track the commodity markets, but scrap metal prices have dropped severely from 2 years ago.
We’re in a recession. They are building few cars, or anything else for that matter.
I find it hard to believe there is a shortage of raw materials.

I find it more likely that track sales didn’t drop significantly when prices jumped due to material costs.
When the trend reversed and material costs went down, there was no reason to drop prices.
Ralph

#54
C. Nelson said:
... and the new Davenport sets are a steal as well...

cale


Davenport sets ??? I hadn’t seen them. Not on Ridge Road’s website. Will keep looking.

#55

Before the big move south, I decided to thin out the goofy gauge items of which I now am really glad I did and went after some On30 stuff. I still have quite a bit of Lionel items so I built a small layout in one of our empty bedrooms. In the other empty bedroom I was building an On30 layout but decided to go down to HO with most of the room. I enjoy building logging kits and I am on a second large HO sawmill. Some day I might again resurrect the tabletop layout for my large scale live steamers but of course, outside. Tomorrow maybe different but I know I’ll never get back into goofy gauge again like I was before this change.

Whatever turns your crank is good.

TOF in Lost Wages

#56

Jon,
both the Prospector and Lumberjack sets are on Ridge road site (and very good value, considering individual item pricing). Check under Bachmann/G scale/Sets.

#57
Tim Brien said:
Jon, both the Prospector and Lumberjack sets are on Ridge road site (and very good value, considering individual item pricing). Check under Bachmann/G scale/Sets.
I'll look again as I didn't see them. The Davenport by itself is at RRS for $126. Not sure what the 4 ore cars are worth. I wouldn't give you a nickle for the track and power pack :o
#58

Vic,
track always was an issue with largescale. Aristo and Lionel introduced relatively low cost track to the market in the early 1990’s. The ‘honeymoon’ was over by 2007 and reality is now the issue. As I stated previously, track prices will remain high for a long time to come. Raw material prices are hard to swallow when they spiral upwards, but couple that to a decreasing American dollar (expected to decrease for several years - look to the current commodity pricing for gold, a record high) and a manufacturer’s reluctance to decrease prices once the market has become ‘accustomed’ to paying high prices and we have definately an ‘Achilles heel’ in the hobby.

#59

Well, its the newbies, and the gazzillionaires, that will buy track at high prices, i’m in the group that is going to TRY to “make do with what I have” unless i run onto a track deal i can’t resist or is too good of a price to passe up. Here about a year ago I purchased a box of 12/ 54 inch USA/Aristo, and a box of 12 \10 ft curves in stainless steel delivered to my door for $204. Too good to pass up. Trying to make do with what I have like I say unless oportunity comes a knockin!! Also sometimes you can catch a deal on Ebay know what you are buying and there are some ways to get a better deal than expected even there sometimes. Time of day or night and not a good picture, or just knowing what you looking for and the prices that are reasonable. The Regal

#60

One good thing for guys like me, used R1 track prices, even R1 switches, have stayed pretty consistant on Evilbay. Just not in demand anymore as more people buy into the “wider is better” mantra.