Ok,adjustable locos to fit the “scale” need – and the track radius.
Love it.
Wendell
Curmudgeon said:Victor Smith said:
Sure I would, why not? The only diff being that I wouldnt call most of them by any scale, and market them as toy trains but as toys that are say 1/29 or 1/22.5 "compatable" if you so chose ;)But I would use the drives to produce new models, I wouldnt wait 10 years for each new release.
I think the next craze will be variable models.
Like the adjustable-length track sections, on steamers you rotate the steam dome and make the unit longer or shorter.
On dismals, one of the fans will do.Boxcars and such will be a little more difficult.
Probably a hole in the roof or underneath with a very expensive, proprietary wrench to drop in and rotate.Heck, that would make everybody happy, right?
And it would only raise the cost by 42%.
How about transformers? Buy a Dash-9, twist it around a bit and end up with a 13 ton Shay or a Howe truss bridge.
TonyWalsham said:Dennis Paulson said:I agreee Dennis.
SNIP But who ever sells to the great unwashed group that is growing , had better produce something that runs reliable , the unwashed are not interested in repairing , modifing , re working things to make them work . Buy the pretty , and watch it run , have another drink , out do the neighbors again .The problem is the aspirational show offs who are trying to outdo the neighbours generally do not stay with the hobby.
I have seen this happen before.
They get involved. Have the latest attraction for awhile. Then get bored with it because it requires a lot of ongoing maintenance and all it does is go around in circles. They dump it and move onto the next big thing in the garden.
Please understand I am not knocking those that are quite happy just running rundy roundy. Doing so can be very satisfying. Long term though, we have to hold their attention. Mother nature tends to spoil their fun.
You claim you’re not knocking them but your words clearly show that you are.
I can’t help but think that there are people out there who buy a train set on a whim, get interested, start doing some net research and end up here. They see themselves referred to as “unwashed” and too stupid to understand a basic scale fraction and decide they want no part of a hobby community that exhibits such patronizing arrogance.
Why people buy trains and what they do with them is their own business. They don’t have to justify their decisions to the rest of us. Every train purchase is of benefit to all of us and we should all be acting as resources to potential newcomers rather than as guardians of the hallowed portals.
Kevin Morris said:TonyWalsham said:Dennis Paulson said:I agreee Dennis.
SNIP But who ever sells to the great unwashed group that is growing , had better produce something that runs reliable , the unwashed are not interested in repairing , modifing , re working things to make them work . Buy the pretty , and watch it run , have another drink , out do the neighbors again .The problem is the aspirational show offs who are trying to outdo the neighbours generally do not stay with the hobby.
I have seen this happen before.
They get involved. Have the latest attraction for awhile. Then get bored with it because it requires a lot of ongoing maintenance and all it does is go around in circles. They dump it and move onto the next big thing in the garden.
Please understand I am not knocking those that are quite happy just running rundy roundy. Doing so can be very satisfying. Long term though, we have to hold their attention. Mother nature tends to spoil their fun.
You claim you’re not knocking them but your words clearly show that you are.I can’t help but think that there are people out there who buy a train set on a whim, get interested, start doing some net research and end up here. They see themselves referred to as “unwashed” and too stupid to understand a basic scale fraction and decide they want no part of a hobby community that exhibits such patronizing arrogance.
Why people buy trains and what they do with them is their own business. They don’t have to justify their decisions to the rest of us. Every train purchase is of benefit to all of us and we should all be acting as resources to potential newcomers rather than as guardians of the hallowed portals.
By Golly Kevin you sure do draw some long bows.
Nowhere in anything I wrote above did I use the word “unwashed”. Great or otherwise.
Nowhere did I even mention LGB.
I also never mentioned scale fractions.
I repeat. I am not knocking anyone.
I leave that to the people who seem to worry more about defending the indefensible than coming up with sensible suggestions as to how we could help newcomers.
TonyWalsham said:I call 'em as I see 'em.
By Golly Kevin you sure do draw some long bows.
TonyWalsham said:"I agreee Dennis."
Nowhere in anything I wrote above did I use the word "unwashed". Great or otherwise.
TonyWalsham said:Neither did I.
Nowhere did I even mention LGB.
TonyWalsham said:True. I can't quote you on that. The topic of newbies being too dumb to grasp scale fractions has, nevertheless, been alluded to in this thread.
I also never mentioned scale fractions.
TonyWalsham said:"They get involved. Have the latest attraction for awhile. Then get bored with it because it requires a lot of ongoing maintenance and all it does is go around in circles."
I repeat. I am not knocking anyone.
“…those that are quite happy just running rundy roundy.”
“I agreee Dennis.”
TonyWalsham said:I admit I'm a crusader for the underdog. But I believe it's better to greet potential newcomers to our hobby with a smile and a handshake than with a slap and an insult.
I leave that to the people who seem to worry more about defending the indefensible than coming up with sensible suggestions as to how we could help newcomers.
About a decade ago, the ‘newcomer’ to largescale had generally served an ‘apprenticeship’ in a smaller gauge/scale. With dwindling patronage, the manufacturers sought a new market. The primary outcome of this was a rush of totally technically deficient modellers, who with no previous modelling experience (apart from a coupkle of snap together car kits, maybe), were drawn to this hobby. For most the scale issue was not a concern. They liked what they saw and bought it. As their talents/abilities/knowledge grew, they rationalised their thoughts and looked towards a more ‘stable’ running environment for their hobby. This lead to the upsurge in interest in standard gauge trains and the increasing interest in 1/20.3 scale narrow-gauge. The hobby reached maturity. For many however, the scale issue was unimportant and it is this market which LGB was aimed at. Discussion of the topic is possible without resorting to name calling or criticism.
The fact is that Lehmann had a dedicated band of followers and the inherent quality was more important than the actual scale issue. Many simply believed the marketting blurb and thought that all was at 1/22.5 scale. Then came the ‘spin’ that all components in the Lehmann range complemented each other, heightening the ‘play’ value. For many simple ‘play value’ is what it is all about. However, one can appreciate the actual scale issue as knowing the scale enables the purchaser to ensure that all his equipment is to an actual scale and not simply a ‘complementary scale’.
I have feelings for both sides of the argument and feel that there is a valid case for both sides to coexist without criticism of the other. What I am unable to stomach is the outright lobbying carried out by the few to justify the actions taken by the manufactuerer last year. Leave the lobbying for the boardroom and let the hobby get on with its life.
Kevin,
I see from your profile you are a newcomer to Large Scale.
Whilst it could be considered inappropriate, the term “Great Unwashed” is just an old figure of speech and does not mean, or intend to mean, that anyone, novice or otherwise, is actually unwashed, as in dirty or unworthy. If you took it that way I certainly apologise.
Believe it or not, I am actually on your side.
I think newcomers are not given all the relevant facts by the various manufacturers so that they can operate reliably outdoors. One example is the different, read incompatible, couplers that are used on the introductory equipment. Another example is the track put out by some is not suitable for locos and rolling stock of others.
Tim is more or less correct about the way LS has gone over the years.
LGB popularised LS. They brought out reliable weather resistant semi scale toys that had an instant appeal. Even though they were not USA prototype, being virtutally the only game in town, they nevertheless prospered. This prosperity attracted modellers from other scales which in turn attracted other players in the business. A concerted push was made by the manufacturers to entice more scale modellers to LS which didn’t work because the semi scale toys on offer were not scale enough for them. That meant sales did not meet up with expectations. So the emphasis was changed and a push was on to expand into the non train areas, with even more toylike trains in the hopes it would work. Unfortunately it obviously didn’t work for LGB. For this and a myriad of other reasons LGB failed.
In the meantime Companies such as Bachmann, AC, USAT and now Accucraft have prospered by bringing out consistently scaled stuff. Even if many of the mainline the models were not proper scale they have been accepted because they were at least consistent. Not a mish mash of scales to try and make them look compatible with other models in a product range.
When you have been around LS for the 23 years I have, you get to see what goes on.
I stand by my earlier comments that many newcomers from a non train background become rapidly disillusioned with the performance of trains outdoors. They get sick of the never ending maintenance which was never explained to them as being necessary when they first bought their new “toys”.
Their is no way of easily overcoming what Mother Nature will do to the most carefully laid plans. For many, track power outdoors is a never ending battle. I know. It keeps me in business. Even though I was not the first to do it, once upon a time in the '80’s I had the battery R/C market to myself. Then the Polks saw what the potential was and jumped on the bandwagon. Polks went to Korea and then China to keep the costs down and never looked back. Later on Locolinc and now CVP have joined the fray.
I firmly believe that if any manufacturer was to offer realsitic starter sets with a good quality battery R/C set up they would own the market.
Bachmann had the right idea but tried to do it on the cheap and whilst they, by some accounts, sold nearly a million battery R/C sets, very few have survived.
Kevin, no disrespect, but, once you have actually built an outdoor RR and experienced the pitfalls, you will realise what I am saying is the truth.
TonyWalsham said:
Kevin, I see from your profile you are a newcomer to Large Scale.Whilst it could be considered inappropriate, the term “Great Unwashed” is just an old figure of speech and does not mean, or intend to mean, that anyone, novice or otherwise, is actually unwashed, as in dirty or unworthy. If you took it that way I certainly apologise.
SNIP
Kevin, no disrespect, but, once you have actually built an outdoor RR and experienced the pitfalls, you will realise what I am saying is the truth.
Perhaps my profile is insufficiently detailed but my interest in the potential of outdoor, large scale railways started when I bought the August 1967 issue of Railway Modeller. Between then and now I’ve dabbled in N, HO and #1 scales but for a variety of reasons I’ve rarely managed to put down much permanent track (except N and HO). I admit to having a long spell of inactivity in the hobby, but I think of being a model train buff as being like an alcoholic. You might stop drinking, but you’re never not an alcoholic.
I understand the term “great unwashed”. It’s usually used in a derogatory way to set ourselves up as seperate and somehow more worthy than the masses; in this case, as members of an elite who have somehow earned the right to “operate a model railway” rather than “play with trains”. It can even be used to infer that there is a right way and a wrong way to enjoy model trains.
I take no personal offence at anything you’ve said. My concern is for the future of our hobby when potential newcomers are greeted with derision. As someone in the model train business, you must surely realise that our hobby depends on a constant stream of new members coming in. You’re biting the hand that feeds you if you do anything other than smile say say “Welcome”.
TonyWalsham said:By the way, I completely agree with your assessment of LGB. On the whole they've done us a great service. But when I saw the Snoopy I knew that company was in trouble.
Tim is more or less correct about the way LS has gone over the years. LGB popularised LS. They brought out reliable weather resistant semi scale toys that had an instant appeal. Even though they were not USA prototype, being virtutally the only game in town, they nevertheless prospered. This prosperity attracted modellers from other scales which in turn attracted other players in the business. A concerted push was made by the manufacturers to entice more scale modellers to LS which didn't work because the semi scale toys on offer were not scale enough for them. That meant sales did not meet up with expectations. So the emphasis was changed and a push was on to expand into the non train areas, with even more toylike trains in the hopes it would work. Unfortunately it obviously didn't work for LGB. For this and a myriad of other reasons LGB failed.
Yep, the 'Surfin Joe Cool Snoopy" and products like that were a big part of the ultimate crash, things like that have always been small niche items, and we are a niche in a niche in a niche hobby.
So…
Given all that has been said, just why are Kingsbridge willing to make an offer for what is left (with or without marketing rights outside Germany)? What is it that they see in the product range that they can either integrate with Marklin or run as a separate business?
G45 I think I understand, it is about self preservation…
I don’t expect definitive answers, but feel there is something I am missing…
Ta.
Geoff Merrell said:
So... Given all that has been said, just why are Kingsbridge willing to make an offer for what is left (with or without marketing rights outside Germany)? What is it that they see in the product range that they can either integrate with Marklin or run as a separate business? G45 I think I understand, it is about self preservation...I don’t expect definitive answers, but feel there is something I am missing…
Ta.
The Kingsbridge/Märklin bid would complete the range for them. All the way from Z to IIm!
Just like Trix fit into that picture, so would the IIm stuff.
Cleaning up the product line would be a given; happened at Trix, happened at Märklin and would happen at ex-EPL.
And just like LGBoA made the pronouncements that they’ll build their own, so did Märklin announce that they will enter the GRR scene, with or without acquiring the EPL assets.
Apart from that, it is very easy to see where the expertise is congregated! It wasn’t with an operator of a tourist railway and it isn’t with certain other parties.
Which reminds me, darn, I have at least two more items to translate this weekend! 
In reality, since I don’t sit in the boardroom, I cannot say for sure why Kingsbridge would want the remains of LGB. But, the reality is that there are some really good products there as well as the gummi and wildly fantasy stuff. It’s a foot in the door and it also keeps the competition at bay…if you own it. Control of market share is far easier if the dragon fails to rise from it’s ashes. (This is just my opinion)
Kevin Morris said:Neither should you.
SNIP I take no personal offence at anything you've said. My concern is for the future of our hobby when potential newcomers are greeted with derision. As someone in the model train business, you must surely realise that our hobby depends on a constant stream of new members coming in. You're biting the hand that feeds you if you do anything other than smile say say "Welcome".
I think merely saying welcome and not pointing out to newcomers some of the foibles of LS before they get too involved, does them a disservice.
I always try to say hi, and by the way…
I do not think the term “derision” is appropriate here, it’s too extreme to describe any criticism.
When I started the hobby, I read every forum I could get my hands on, and all the personal web sites I found.
I was and still am very appreciative of getting the “real” info about products, and have avoided many pitfalls.
I appreciate being warned before I made costly and unpleasant mistakes.
I do have my own brain, so I took these data as advice, experience, not gospel.
For example, I come from a scale background. If I did not get the low down on all the different scales out there, multiple ones sold by the same manufacturer, and sometimes total lack of attention to any kind of scale or proportion, I would have made many purchases that I would regret.
In another case, when I started, I was told that DCC outdoors was impossible, and took completely clean track to operate at all. I took this as advice, used my own brain to investigate, and decided it was possible. The advice I received was not interpreted as derisive, but it did bring points of concern to the forefront, so that I addressed them.
Rgards, Greg
Odd.
I remember arguing with GWS…that in the temperate climes was do-able, but not the rest of the world.
I now one guy that takes 15 minutes to wipe his stainless, 2 hours to clean his brass, then all the loco wheels and pickups, and the performance continuously degrades during operations.
NOT in a temperate clime.
Curmudgeon said:
Odd. I remember arguing with GWS.....that in the temperate climes was do-able, but not the rest of the world.I now one guy that takes 15 minutes to wipe his stainless, 2 hours to clean his brass, then all the loco wheels and pickups, and the performance continuously degrades during operations.
NOT in a temperate clime.
Dave,
I know some guys who have to put in almost as much work when running smaller scales indoors. I know other guys who have to clean track just occasionally. For the same reason: climate and environment. Inside or out, if one isn’t aware what’s what there will be plenty of work that wasn’t counted on.
Big NG met up here several years ago.
LARGE Sn3 indoor railroad, three guys all night to clean it to run for the “meet”.
I turn a switch on the loco “on”, open the security flap, push the “go” button and run.
Hardest part is the door.
Did it Friday in the pouring rain here, yesterday at Briggs, and today at Marshall’s.
Total trackage about 3500 feet, none of us cleaned anything but frogs and points with an old toothbrush if garbage got in them.
Total of three systems, if I recall, and nobody had to muck around with 1K ohm resistors on programming tracks due to any incompatibility.
Did have a couple with antennas on the transmitter that didn’t like to stop sometimes.
I remember stopping the K-27 and train, watching the kid trying to stop his at the passing siding, hitting “reverse” and backing the hell outta his way.
Greg Elmassian said:
In another case, when I started, I was told that DCC outdoors was impossible, and took completely clean track to operate at all. I took this as advice, used my own brain to investigate, and decided it was possible. The advice I received was not interpreted as derisive, but it did bring points of concern to the forefront, so that I addressed them.Rgards, Greg
My main concern regarding DCC is a part of my mistrust of the electronics industry in general. I fear that I’d get everything set up and running but in 5 years time I’d buy a new loco and discover that my system has been superceded and made incompatible. I have a similar fear with radio control. I plan therefore, to be a heretic and use track power and the block system. I may come to regret that decision, but for the type of layout I have in mind, it should work fine.
When I used the term “derision” I wasn’t referring to the advice one can get here. The members of this site are knowledgeable and generous with that knowledge. Each has his biases, but that’s life. My reasons for using that word can be found elsewhere in this thread.
One of the interesting aspects of fully self-contained radio/battery is you do not have to attend to any specific protocol.
Drives the nmra nutz.
We can have 4 or 5 different systems all running on the same railroad.
Yet, you put a Quasinami equipped unit on an MTS track without knowing how to build and install a diode dropping network in your loco for that system, it won’t work.
Or, how to add a 1K ohm resistor for programming.
Some r/c systems change so much the first is not compatible with the second, nor the third, all from the same manufacturer.
Remember that.
Makes life easier.