Large Scale Central

While we're at it: Another mine tram question

General Discussion
#1

Well, two, really:

1.) Is/was it general practice to PUSH or PULL ore cars with a mine mule … or is a combination of both allowed? (In other words… do I have to have a facility to run around or turn my mine trams?) I know the answer to this probably becomes more restrictive as time passes … so the more information the better on all available time periods.

2.) I have seen mine mules (the locomotive type) powered by batteries, overhead catenary/trolley wire, stored steam, stored compressed air, and diesel engines. What dictates the kind of power you use? Am I going to be completely off base if I make mine “diesel” in a smaller mine tunnel? It’d be a lot simpler than trying to do a trolley wire, and the battery trams are just … ugly.

(I saw the James Bond movie the other night with the Amberly Chalk Pits tunnel and tram, and think it’s an excellent example of the kind of thing I’m going for here… maybe a cross between this, and the “Indiana Jones” mine carts … but with a less comic booky feel, and more of a ‘could have been’ atmosphere… which is why I need to know if a diesel mule pushing cars in a mine is pure Hollywood or actual practice!)

Matthew (OV)

#2

ok, no male modeling here this time :smiley:

(http://www.minonktalk.com/minemule.jpg)

http://themoonlitroad.com/the-black-dog-story-background/ http://www.coaleducation.org/coalhistory/default_H.htm http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Whitcomb_Locomotive_Works http://www.frontiertrails.com/oldwest/transporting.html http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=any&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOROOT=/p268001coll24&CISOBOX1=mine http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/31818-industrial-revelations-coal-mining-tram-video.htm prob none of that will help… cale

#3

While nasty language isn’t really my usual route, I have to wonder if miners using the kind of equipment in that photo had difficulty expressing which way to go, as that particular vehicle has an a** end on both ends… :slight_smile:

(Nice links, too!)

I will be interested to see what else people know … I’ve been doing a lot of google searching and museum browsing myself.

Matthew (OV)

#4

What! Battery locos are ugly??? Don’t tell Red!

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/altterrain/mine%20diorama/mine-loco.jpg)

(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n214/altterrain/mine%20diorama/minetram-diorama.jpg)

-Brian

#5

I confess, I had to look at that second one a few times to be sure it was a model… if I were going to have an electric mine trammer, that’d be the kind!

So… push or pull? (and why?)

#6

I may be wrong but in what I’ve read and seen I would say that the miners pulled tjeir cars out of the mines and then pushed them on the return when empty. They didn’t “waste” track on turnarounds, wyes, etc.
Stringing wire overheads was not uncommon, but dangerous for the mines. I saw an operating compressed air engine last year but it was used in an explosives plant in Arizona. I don’t think diesel was real common because I’m not sure they had the venting necessary. Depending on the time era I would vote for steam or battery.
That compressed air engine was neat. It’s full-size and on a “layout” near Fallbrook, Calif., along with other steamers and diesels. And we thought G scale was large!

#7

I would think pushing in and pulling out would be the safest way to do it, a full load of tippers being pushed out and derailing would block the tunnel with rock and possibly trap the miners , but a derail of empties being pushed in could be fairly quickly righted and back on their way. Motive choice was often based on what was avalable, what was being mined , and when your modeling. The presence of combustble gases might leave out electric or battery power in favor of compressed air, compressed steam (cookers) would only be used above grade or the mines could get unbearbly damp. Likewise diesel or gas power required excellent ventilation or you could sufficate your miners, and like steam cookers wouldnt travel too deep into the mines, usually just to pick up tippers coming up from deeper in the mines. deep underground mines today use battery or electric, modern safety features forgoing the compressed air models, I thinks its really entirely up to you, model what you really like, not what whats entirely kosher becuase historicly you have a lot of wiggle room. Personally I like these:

(http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/ainskip/ThievesBridge/Images/CMp364%20Baldwin%20ACand%20IR.jpg)

#8

Also, here in the West it was usually “:mule power” rather than “horse power!” The BLM is sti;; rounding up mues!

#9

There are always some interesting mine trams being made over at http://forum.Gn15.info like this one - http://forum.gn15.info/viewtopic.php?t=5492
Mine is identical to the one offered by Ozark Miniatures.

-Brian

#10

My only experience is the tourist Lackawanna Coal Mine near Wilkes Barre, PA. They use a cable system with a large electric motor & bull wheel up at the mine head and lower cars into the mine and pull them back up by cable. At the top there was a switch to allow the cars to e lowered down grade to the tipple. My visit was pre-digital so I don’t have any photos readily available. If it interests you I’ll try and find something to scan.

#11

(http://www.lscdata.com/users/cabby/_forumfiles/minelocoSmall.jpg)

This is pretty cool. This could be Ray’s first attempt at a loco. :wink: Ralph

#12

I guess the Kennecott copper mine might be quite a challenge to model: few would want a large hole in their back yard. lol

In the past, it seems that the ores were transported out of the ‘deep hole’ by ore cars hauled by small steeple cab electric locos. These locos had pantograph’s and overhead wires supported by pylons and in places I believe a trolley/skate method was also used.

Sadly the locos and cars are gone I understand and have been replaced by massive dumper trucks.

#13

An uncle of my wife’s came to her dad’s 80th birthday party. I always knew he lived in Tucson but didn’t know that before he retired he drove one of those monster trucks at Bisbee.
Let’s see, in G scale that open pit mine would probably be 30 feet deep! And I struggle building a two foot hill. I’d have to buy a backhoe!

#14

Doug,

I agree, you need to buy a back hoe.

Can I borrow it sometime? :wink:

Not battery powered and not in the mining business, but in Elizabethton, Tn., the Chamber of Commerce is next to a static display that includes a “fireless” boiler engine that was used in the rayon industry. The boiler is huge.

#15

I wonder what kind of mileage it would get on it’s drive to Illinois?

#16

Every photo I’ve ever seen, the ore was pulled out of the mine, and the empties were pushed back in. I’ve never seen a mine that used a wye or any other method to turn the loco. (Of course, if you searched hard enough you could probably find an exception.)

Coal-fired steam locos were occasionally used but not often, due to the obvious ventilation problems. Diesel or gas engines would present similar problems.

Battery locos were common. Stored steam and compressed air locos were used in many mines, especially where it was important to avoid sparks that could cause a dust or gas explosion.

I’m planning to convert a Bachmann On30 Porter into a compressed air loco for my Cliffside Mine.

#17

I like that answer. Makes the track plan for the 32mm easier… though I will still need a couple of dumping sidings and one to store a “man bus” or two (guess riding in mine tubs became kapu at some point in the modern way of thinking)

Below ground will be even more interesting… uprights, blasted tunnel, stopes, some kind of underground junction and field office… was considering calling the station at the bottom of the mine “Bell Rock” but figured all the Tolkien fans would tar and feather me.

either way it’ll make for some interesting operations. Now to come up with a working design…

Matthew (OV)

#18

One thing that I wish I had incorporated into my layout is a view into an underground mine, from an opening in the side of a cliff. Unfortunately by the time I thought of it, it was too late. I would have had to tear out too much rock work.

#19

Matthew. It’s time to “dig up” a design!
Are you thinking of an “ore-type” mine like we have in the west or a coal mine?

#20

It’ll be an ore mine of one type or another. I’ve been reading a lot on hard rock gold mine type operations … I’ll have places you can see directly into the underground parts, and other stuff will be onboard camera… Trains will take the ore in hoppers from the mine to the crush plant, and sacks of the milled ore to the pier in boxcars for shipment out. I’m no metallurgist, but I’m thinking the idea will be that the mine was copper or similar, and they found gold (or something) along the way that kept the company, the railroad, and the island prosperous long after everyone else had become a memory … meaning I’ll be able to narrow gauge railroad anytime from the late 1800’s to present times.

Matthew (OV)