Large Scale Central

Wheel quality

I recently purchased nearly twenty coach/combine/baggage kits from a well known manufacturer. My previous experience with the wheelsets from this company was what I call the 10% factor. I knew that I would scrap 10% of the wheelsets as totally unusable. I test every axle to find wheels that not only run true, but also do not run eccentrically on the axle causing the car to lope up and down. I then combine the good wheels to make true running sets and superglue them with correct back to back measurement.

Then I pick those wheels that, while not perfect, are at least presentable and have minimal impact on car performance. I then combine these to make ‘acceptable’ wheelsets to use on flatcars, gondolas where any wobbling, loping is not so noticable. The remaining wheelsets are simply useless and discarded. This does add considerably to the overall cost, as factoring in the cost of the dud sets and averaging out the waste over the acceoptable sets, one could purchase a decent set of wheels from a reputable manufacturer for the same ‘average’ price per set.

I have wheelsets from the mid-90’s from this manufacturer, with the solid steel, thick axles and these sets all run true out of the box (new old stock). The manufacturer wheels seem to have followed a cycle over the past few years. Initially, wobbling was the main defect. This may be corrected by twisting the wheels on the axle to find a ‘sweet’ spot where the wobble is counteracted by an axle which may be distorted, exaccerbating the wobble of the wheel. The wobble was replaced by wheels running eccentrically on the axle. This causes the car body to move up and down as it travels the rails. Well, the manufacturer have now surpassed themselves by incorporating both wobble and eccentric behaviour in their wheelsets. The wastage factor is now closer to 25%.

The wheels are extremely expensive to import from overseas, due their weight, so even though they are relatively inexpensive to purchase in the U.S. (generally $10-$14 per set), the landed cost to me is actually as expensive as better quality CNC machined wheelsets. I have literally had hundreds of the wheelsets from the cheap manufacturer pass through my hands and feel that I have a fair view of the lack of production quality. Unfortunately, one is not able to buy the manufacturer’s excellent rolling stock without purchasing their wheelsets.

I spent a l;ot of time and money on my elevated roadbed and track to ensure smooth running. Any lack of rolling quality is amplified by my smooth track surface. If I laid my track in ballast sbjected to frost heave, then the lack of quality would not be so apparent. Some may say that narrow-gauge rolling stock did rock around a lot and is actually prototypical. Well, a trip on a car that rocks and lopes as much as this would make the passengers sick and hardly likely to ever use the conveyance again. Prototypically, the amount of car movement viewed from outside the car would be negligible, so the argument has no grounds. Car inspectors would scrap any prototypical wheels that behaved as these wheelsets do. When I have viewed narrow-gauge cars the car movement is due to track undulation and not wheelsets running ‘out of true’.

I fail to see how the manufacturer could consistently make a quality wheelset for years through the 1990’s, only to see quality deteriorate rapidly in recent years. Thankfully, there are still manufacturers who actually machine their wheels rather than roughly cast them. Oh well, another lot of wheels in the bin. What was once the 10% factor is now an expensive 25% wastage factor.

It’s simple really. 1. The Chinese think it is being ‘clever’ to see how far they stretch the terms of a contract without actually breaking it. Skimping on Quality Control is part of that. They figure if you’re dumb enough to blindly trust them, it’s your loss. 2. If the toy company rejected those wheelsets AFTER taking delivery, they would have to eat the cost of replacing them. 3. There are actually many people who don’t notice, or don’t care as long as the thing stays on the track (or looks pretty on the shelf)… and 4. They figure that MOST the people that DO object will just buy aftermarket wheels anyway, rather than try to get a warantee replacement from them… It’s simply more profitable to make a lot of semi-crap than lower volumes of a quality product.

That’s just what happens when you let MBAs run the world.

I fully agree about the MBA’a…

One in four? That sounds about right to what I’ve experienced with those wheels. Fortunately for me, the cost was a bit less, so even with a 25% reject rate, they still came out cheaper than the “next contender.”

Look into AMS’s 1:29 wheels. I did some preliminary research at one point, and if memory serves, they’re very close to the same diameter and just a bit more expensive given the failure rate of the others. I haven’t had to buy any new wheels lately, so I haven’t bought any new. Don’t know what the cost is on your side of the globe.

Later,

K

Kevin,
local price in region of $20 - $25 USD ($10.00 - $14.00 USD in the States). This is only a few dollars less than Aristo CNC wheelsets. I saw a photograph of the AML wheels and actually thought that Bachmann was supplying them to Accucraft. They do seem quite coarse for 1/29 scale, but ideal for my narrow-gauge preference.

Tim,
Since your track work is very good have you considered Sierra Valley wheels. I don’t have any but I’ve heard they are very good quality and true to scale. If you buy 12 axles the cost comes to about $19.17 per car including shipping.

Lloyd

I use Sierra on quite a bit of my stock, and Raymonds on the rest.
Haven’t had a bad one yet.

Lloyd,
I have chosen to stick with 1/22.5 scale and stick primarily to kitbashing Bachmann rolling stock. I am aware that Sierra are an excellent product, however, as the Bachmann cars/kits come with wheelsets included, then purchasing additional aftermarket wheelsets, doubles the cost per car. My complaint is that Bachmann knew how to make a decent true running wheelset back in the mid-1990’s, so why not today? The wheels that were made back then still run true on their axles and I am yet to have to scrap any of them. Today’s product is akin to what one would expect on a kid’s toytrain from the supermarket.

Mik pretty well summed up the “business as usual” modus operandi inside the PRC. Since I have began downsizing I have been more seriously reading threads with an outsiders veiwpoint, namely no koolaid or other loyalties to bind my objectivity, and I’m actually concerned about our future if 90% of everything affordable in LS is eventually made in the PRC and the major brands cannot keep their factory quality under control, the future of the hobby may be very bleak if 90% of everthing is crap out of the box or ends up breaking after a short time.

Vic, I share your concern, but, I don’t think it will be long before the factories in New Joisey will re-open.

Dear Tim,

Perhaps the wheel molds are wearing out.

Have you let Bachmann Philly know about this? (Jack? Stan?)

Would they accept defective returns from a customer, retailer, or distributor?

How much would you save in shipping and wheel set costs if you didn’t have to throw away 25 percent?

How many good sets are you shooting for in a typical shipment?

What percentage of your separate purchase wheel sets replace defective ones on Bachmann rolling stock or in rolling stock kits?

What percentage for bashes/creations? What percentage used on competitor’s rolling stock?

Short term, about the only way I can think of fixing this is to have some seller, or a modeler close to a seller,

check for bad wheels and replace them before shipment, returning the bad ones for credit.

Long term fix, of course, would be to have the factory improve their quality control. (Jack?, Stan?)

I presume you already know about George Schreyer’s wheel tips, so for others:

http://www.trainweb.org/girr/tips/tips3/wheel_tips.html

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

Joe,
the wheels are cast. All manufacturers use an insulated wheelset, so simple assembly is not the problem as some wheels run out of true and others run eccentrically. I feel that the problem is poorly cast wheels, which do not cast the same each time. This leads to the journal into which the plastic insulated bush is fitted being out of true. If there was a machining process to carry out then the wheels would be more reliable. In the 1990’s the wheels were excellent and I believe the same profile (maybe something in your ‘moulds wearing out’ statement).

  There is simply no financially expedient way for a seller to check every car for wheel defects or to open the blister packs to check quality.  The average hobbyist does not give a hoot as to the running quality of the wheelsets.  In the past five years or so I have been criticised by these people as being 'too picky'.  If the wheels were sold at a fraction of their price then maybe I would not be so choosy.  If I purchase a set of Bachmann wheels in the States and ship them to me,  then the landed cost ($25.00) is only about five dollars less than a quality set of wheels  and in some cases the wheels are the same price as the 'USA Trains' wheelsets that have been marketted for many years at around $25.00 per set in Australia.

  Even on their Spectrum quality 1/20.3 cars,  I believe that the wheels were not much better than the Big Hauler brand.  Bachmann may be low-end in the price range but I feel that they are doing themselves a disservice by their lack of attention to the quality of their wheels.  I have at my disposal many, many LGB locomotives that I could run if I desired,  but I am a great fan of Bachmann's 1/22.5 scale range and really enjoy their range.  The wheels, however, continue to be a bitter disappointment.

I don’t understand what the difficulty is, just pick an ISO wheel tread profile standard, everybody make wheels to that standard, problem goes away immediately, there’s full cross-compatibility worldwide, end of discussion.

Forrest,
two points come to mind -

  1. no matter what standard is chosen, the end product is determined by how much effort (quallity control) the manufacturer is prepared to put into the product

  2. the only thing that all largescale manufacturers agree upon is to disagree!

Tim,

What is the purpose/goal of this thread? What would your short term satisfaction be? Long term?

If one were to check each wheel set, what specs/tolerances would make a good passenger wheel? Freight wheel? Junk wheel?

(I assume junk wheels could be used as layout decorations or flat car loads.)

What tools/instruments would be needed to check the specs?

Are the backs of the wheels good enough (flat enough, true enough to the tread/flange) to measure side-to-side wobble at the tread/flange?

Can you mess up a good wheel by re-gauging it?

If the treads were ground or lathed to a good run-out, would the tread/flange profile need to be re-ground or lathed too?

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

edit: changed tread to tread/flange

Purpose of thread - fed up with buying junk under the guise of what should be a decent product. The manufacturer could do it ten years ago - what happened that advances in machining technology have occurred and yet quality has degraded? Short term/long term, I want a decent set of wheels, not a lottery gamble every time I buy the product.

All wheels produced should fall within acceptable standard guidelines as have been readily available for many years. I set to a nominal 1.575" Junk wheels cost the same to produce and retail the same price as decent wheels. I do not enter the marketplace to buy wheels that have to be discarded. Junk wheels on the trackside are not only junk but a waste of money to me the consumer. If it is easy enough for me to regauge to correct back to back, then why cannot a machine or a trained process line worker do it. Obviously no standards in place. Back to back governed by the size of the plastic spacers between the wheels. When Bachmann used a solid axle (no plastic spacers, the back to back falls within NMRA standards without need for adjustment. Bachmann were built to standards in the mid-1990’s. Why not now? Regauging is not the problem. Problem is wobbly and eccentric wheels that cannot be repaired. Rarely do I see a bent axle

Vernier caliper to 0.001". Standard is to three decimal places, so measurement tool should be likewise.

Wheel inner face is more than adequate to correctly gauge. A good wheel may runout around 0.010" back to back discrepancy (no noticable wobble)

Anything is possible, but in general regauging is a simple operation. A wobbling or eccentric wheel is beyond redemption and any machining will not only make it undersize but be throwing good money after bad money.

Tim Brien said:
… The manufacturer could do it ten years ago - what happened that advances in machining technology have occurred and yet quality has degraded? …

one relevant thing happened. everything is produced in china now. (but that has been mentioned various times in this thread already) Tim, in really don’t see your problem. as you wrote somewhere above, you are buying the cheapest option. well, that is, why you get cheap merchandise. and about the addition of prohibitive mailing costs - why don’t you just take one aixle to a local workshop and tell them to duplicate it? that worked for me:

(http://kormsen.ko.funpic.de/bahn/forumpics/weels2.JPG)

Everyone is describing the problem, but only have hinted at the cause. I use the Bachmann freight wheels, with great success. When there is a problem, such as a wobble it is generally from the plastic insert/insulator having been installed incorrectly. The problem here is that it is difficult to remove the insulator and re-install it successfully. I have a few wheels lying around waiting for me to turn some insulators (I have the delrin).

Barry - BBT

Tim Brien said:
Purpose of thread - fed up with buying junk under the guise of what should be a decent product.
After 20 + years professionally in the automotive field, I feel your pain and understand but this problem just doesn't reflect on our hobby. ;)

Tim,

Are all your problems related to the insulated side, as Barry suggests?

Barry,

Have you ever seen a problem with the non-insulated side?

What makes room for the insulator? Larger wheel hole, or smaller axle end, or both?

I have read that many (all?) B’mann wheel sets are under gauge (back-to-back).

Could your delrin insulators be fashioned to force the b2b into spec?

Lastly, what are the technical terms for these axle/wheel deficiencies?

I’m thinking that “runout” is the term for eccentricity, which would cause the axle to bounce up and down once a revolution as the wheel rolled down the track.

I’m not sure what side to side wobble is called, where the tread/flange moves left and right once a revolution.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Joe Satnik

Edit: changed “wheels” to “wheel sets”