Large Scale Central

Wheel and Track Standards

Preface
About two years ago, the NMRA put forth a proposal for large scale wheel and track standards. A copy of that proposal made its way into my inbox for me to look over. I read over what they had proposed, and found it quite out of line with what the large scale community had been doing. I drafted a letter to the NMRA expressing my concerns, going further to question the NMRA’s involvement in large scale, given the perceived mutual exclusivity of the two communities. I was expecting a “thanks for your note” response at the most; more to the point, I was fully expecting to be completely ignored. Instead, the NMRA asked me to work with them, even to take a leadership role in the process. I could hardly justify turning them down, so I agreed to take on what had up to this point proven to be a very quixotic task.

The Process
Over the next year or so, I gathered information on what standards currently existed (G1MRA, MOROP), as well as measured wheels and track to see who was doing what, and how they compared to those standards. I talked to manufacturers and and others who have been involved in this process in years past to get their perspective. The goal was to come up with a set of standards tight enough to where trains would stay on the rails, but loose enough so that they allow for smooth operation of most of the models already being produced. Together with Gary Raymond, the NMRA’s technical coordinator for large scale, and input from others in the large scale community along the way, we drew up three “levels” of standards for large scale, tailored to match the NMRA’s standards format. Once we had our numbers put together, we took them to Didrik Voss and Ed McCamey, who head the NMRA’s standards committee. (Forgive me if I’m getting the exact titles wrong.) Didrik and Ed took the numbers we came up with, and ran them through a series of mathematical equations that check for incompatibilities (i.e., wheels wider than track, etc.), and came back to us with their results. With just a little adjustment here and there (in most cases, no more than .002") we finally agreed on a set of numbers that should provide a solid foundation for large scale wheel and track.

The Proposal
The full proposal can be viewed here: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/LargeScalesv1-5.pdf

What it does:
The proposal establishes a single wheel and track standard for all of the principle scales that run on gauge 1 (45mm) track. This includes scales from 1:32 to 1:20.3. The thought process there being that trains of all those scales are inherently designed to run on the same track, therefore a single standard regardless of scale would ensure maximum compatibility. The proposal does allow for a fair amount of flexibility in terms of tread width, flange width, and flange depth so that a manufacturer of 1:20.3 trains can develop a wheel profile suitable for that scale, while leaving the 1:32 manufacturer free to use a wheel profile with a more scale appearance for that particular scale and still be compliant.

The proposal establishes two basic standards, a “standard” profile and a “hi-rail” profile. The only difference between those two standards is with regard to flange width and depth. The “hi-rail” standard allows for deeper and thicker flanges than the “standard” standard. Manufacturers are already building wheels that fall into the specs for both of these standards, and run successfully in the garden, so there’s no worries about one being “too finescale” for outdoor use. There is no difference in track standards between the two sets of numbers.

The numbers in the proposal closely mirror certain G1MRA standards which have become common practice in large scale (such as a target back-to-back spacing of 1.575"), but tolerances have been loosened here and there to accommodate legacy products, such as older locomotives with much tighter back-to-back spacing or deeper wheel flanges. These legacy dimensions may exist outside the specifications, but the track standards are designed such that they should still operate smoothly.

What it does not do:
The proposal makes no attempt to individually identify any of the scales in the 1:32 to 1:20.3 range so far as wheels and track are concerned. Historically, the notion of individually identifying each of the various scales has never caught on, so the committee decided there was no point in doing something that was going to be completely ignored anyway. Instead,they are all grouped under the generic “LS” heading. One set of numbers, one overall classification. (“Fn3” is singled out in the Proto specifications, not covered by this proposal.) This proposal also does not directly specify standards for 7/8" scale (2’ gauge on 45mm track) or 1:20.3 (F) Standard gauge (70.6mm gauge), though recommendations for those scales are mentioned in the footnotes.

This proposal also does not address anything above the wheels and track relative to large scale. It doesn’t set coupler heights, interfaces, operational protocols, or anything of that nature. It is singularly aimed at the interface of the wheel and rail.

My Editorial Comments
I expect the immediate reaction to this proposal by some members of the large scale community will be that it’s viewed as an intrusion on large scale by a group that has “no business” messing around with us. Certainly previous attempts by the NMRA have resulted in numbers that clearly did not reflect the needs nor practices of the large scale community. I believe this time is different. The NMRA really changed their way of thinking relative to these standards. It was a bit of a tough row to hoe in the beginning, but our discussions over the past two years have opened a lot of eyes (mine included) as to how each community works. They really let go of a lot of control in this process. This proposal is in no way “them” telling “us” how to do things. These standards are fundamentally based on “our way of thinking,” but presented in a format that meshes with the NMRA’s standards format. Ultimately, the end result is the same–workable standards to which manufacturers current and future can refer when developing new products, ensuring our trains–past, present, and future have the best shot at staying on the rails.

If you feel an uncontrollable urge to comment on this proposal, you may do so by clicking this link: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html then clicking on the “Comments from Members” link near the top of the page.

In Closing
I know there’s a fair amount of anti-NMRA sentiment in large scale. In fact, it was my own biases against the NMRA that got me involved in the process. I would not have spent 2 years working on this if I felt it wasn’t going to help the hobby. I don’t care which letters are at the top of the sheet of paper, the concept of a set of numbers to which manufacturers can look to establish a baseline for their products will ultimately be a good thing for all of us. We’ve all spent too much time trouble-shooting switches and re-gauging wheels for us not to recognize the need for some sense of agreement. The manufacturers have been marching there–slowly–if only because we complain when things don’t stay on the track. This proposal serves as a guide, reinforcing the direction that many of these manufacturers have gone, and hopefully providing a bit of incentive for others to join along.

Later,

K

That certainly sounds heartening that they’ve asked the opinion of a respected member of the Large Scale community for their input into this. And I’m sure we’ll hear from the usual list of suspects who either trash the idea or sing it’s praises. I’m also sure it’ll make for a very spirited discussion and hope something positive comes from it.

I was of the impression that gauge 1 standards had been around for years, but what do I know. I’m anxious to see how this turns out.

Regarding F scale standard gauge equipment, I know that lines have to be drawn somewhere, but to say something doesn’t exist, when companies have clearly existed and products have even been displayed at the NMRA Conventions and associated train shows, since at least 2001, seems strange.

“With regard to 1:20.3 (also designated “F” scale within the NMRA for exacting PROTO standards), trains built to that scale running on gauge 1 track would technically be classified Fn3. Since F (standard gauge) is not commercially supported, the standards committee opted not to include standards for that track gauge with the “Standard” and “Deep Flange” standards. Wheel and track standards for Fn3 should be accepted to be identical to those used for gauge 1.”

Thank you for your comments and efforts, Kevin. And also for trying to keep us informed on a subject and an organization that so many hold animosity and loathing for the people that are involved. I will follow your suggestions and take my comments over to the NMRA site. Good work!

A lot of people in LS trash the idea of standards.

The main problem they don’t seem to understand, is that without a well designed, and thought out, set of standards, for wheel gauge, and track; and without the manufacturers sticking to these standards; your rolling stock, no-mater what scale, or manufacturer, running on Gauge 1 track, will not give you good performance.

As an example; I offer you the Aristo Wide Radius switch, and the variety of back-to-back spacing of all manufacturers’ wheel sets.
This is not meant as a lambasting of Aristo, but is a glaring example of lack of good standards, causing poor performance.

Couplers are another example, where not all couplers will work well together, causing a lot of people to turn to aftermarket replacements.

The idea of a standard, with a proper “Gauging Tool” (Like the one that Aristo offers…to what standard it is made to, is a question; Aristo switches, and wheel gauge don’t even match it) is a great idea, and long overdue.

Large Scale manufacturers have seemed to take the toy market approach, of not wanting standards, that could promote the purchase of competing products; but are fast learning that the buying public will not abide by the limiting factor of buying only one manufacturer’s product line.

No set of standards could ever dictate what scale you choose, to run on #1 gauge track, but if the standards do keep the track and wheels working in co-operation, then everyone wins.

So, please, please; let's not hear that too common cry: "I don't need no gawd darned standards".......it's not in anyones' best interest.

People develop aversions to standards when half-baked standards are proposed. Do it right, and they’ll embrace the standard, though it takes time to be adopted, especially if there is already lots of non-standard installations.

Kevin

Thanks for all your work in this effort.

A few comments

  1. the most important comment is to know your audience. Over the past number of years I have been assisting manufacturers on a variety of topics. One thing I learned is that footnotes are the wrong place to put important information that in essence is an important requirement.

English is not the first language for many of the manufacturers who actually produce our models. Wheels intended for 1:32 models are indeed different than wheels intended for 1: 13 models even if they are intended to operate on the same gauge of track.

The wheel tread and flange depth are different. Yes you have some of this in the footnotes but I would recommend it is better to differentiate them in the actual standards themselves so it is clear and easy to understand.

  1. Compromise is necessary if we want models produced over a variety of time frames and scales to work on the same track. In the old standards the frog was designed in the deep flange area to accommodate these differences. (alas in a footnote see above for why footnotes do not work)

  2. F standard gauge is indeed produced and it we want to operate this scale outdoors in a variety of environments their needs to be standards for this scale as well.

  3. Do you have the consensus from the manufacturers in large scale for this proposal? Standards that work tend to have a lot of consensus both with the user as well as manufacturing community.

Stan Ames

Quote:
... Regarding F scale standard gauge equipment, I know that lines have to be drawn somewhere, but to say something doesn't exist, when companies have clearly existed and products have even been displayed at the NMRA Conventions and associated train shows, since at least 2001, seems strange.
I got an earful at the Narrow Gauge Convention over this. (A [i]narrow gauge[/i] convention--of all the places to hear about standard gauge!) It's something that's being looked at, but is not specifically part of this proposal, which addresses 45mm track only. F-standard is covered in the Proto standards, but of course the tolerances are much tighter. Because of the way the NMRA has designated the scales, it's actually rather clean-cut to go in and add F (standard) standards to the "standard" and "hi-rail" specs down the road once consensus is reached. Since it's its own gauge, we can move forward with this, while still working on the other.

Later,

K

Stan, as for consensus from the manufacturers, the ones I’ve talked to through all this have responded either tepidly (i.e, “we’ll see”) or simply didn’t care too much because they had their own standards to which they’re building and have little interest in changing. I can’t say I blame any of them in the least. The NMRA’s standards to date have been less than stellar, so what belief would they have that this time would be different. The wheels produced by at least a few of the major manufacturers, as well as a fair number of 3rd-party wheelmakers mostly fall nicely into these specs, since they were authored with current production in mind. In that regard, there’s little expectation that they’d complain (too loudly) since they don’t really have to change anything. Fortunately for the “legacy” products and manufacturers who are using other standards, these are authored such that there’s a great deal of overlap, so legacy products (i.e. LGB’s uber-deep flanges) will still work well.

The reality is that these standards aren’t so much authored for current manufacturers to “adopt” (because they’ve got their molds, etc. already in place) as much as they are for future manufacturers to have a benchmark to which they can refer. One up-and-coming manufacturer I talked to about his wheel profiles said he just took his best guess, and would welcome something that was reflective of industry practice so his equipment would work well.

Quote:
... Wheels intended for 1:32 models are indeed different than wheels intended for 1: 13 models even if they are intended to operate on the same gauge of track. The wheel tread and flange depth are different. Yes you have some of this in the footnotes but I would recommend it is better to differentiate them in the actual standards themselves so it is clear and easy to understand.
First, 1:13 is [i]not[/i] covered under this proposal. But even if it were, the differences aren't as big as one might think. The primary difference is tread width, which--in actuality--can really be as wide as one would like to make it, so long as it fits within the truck frame. The other variable is flange depth. The flange depth as specified would work out to a very scale flange in 1:13. (Even at the extreme end, a depth of .118" at 1:13 is a scale 1.5"--still deeper than the prototype flange.) Flange width is similarly compensated for.

As for putting things in the notes as opposed to tabular form, it was felt that a table with notations was easier to understand than a table that broke out every single possible scale combination. The only variable that’s truly indicated as variable relative to scale is the width of the wheel, anyway.

Later,

K

What does “F” stand for?
And what is its origin?

John Bouck said:
What does "F" stand for? And what is its origin?
John - You have mail.

Kevin - Thank you for the time you have put into this. I haven’t read the proposal yet, but from your description I think we are way closer to some workable standards than we have ever been.

Ah ha! I see.
We have Z, TT, N. O, HO, S, G, and others.
F stands for that %$^#* scale.
So it is a meaningless title, such as “G” means Great, Garden, Generic Large Scale.

Next time I’m at a show and a feller asks me what scale this stuff is, I can answer %$#$ Gauge.
I like it. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

An explanation of “F” scale:
http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/WhatIsFScale.html

I don’t have any issues with the proposal but I am concerned that it will be ignored by the manufacturers.
I know a few dealers and have found that often when I ask “what size is that boxcar?” the typical answer is “G scale.” When I ask what it is between 1.20.3 and 1.32 I usually get a blank look. I don’t expect that to change.
The coupler issue is another I don’t expect to change. I use Kadee couplers so I have cars that will allow me to use other manufacturers cars. I like my Kadee couplers and wouldn’t change to something else. I don’t expect manufacturers to standardize their couplers. I think that is less about what they have developed and more an attempt to get large scalers to use just their product.
Before my eyesight faded I was in HO and so I’m used to standards from NMRA. I’m glad to see their sincere involvement in our end of the hobby.

Kevin,

Thank you for addressing the F scale Standard gauge. I certainly understand that it does not fall in to the category of model trains that run on 45 mm track. I was really surprized that it was even mentioned and yet I guess that question was drawn out because of the 1:20.3 Fn3 designation. Very pleased that it is being addressed and I’m sure some others are, also.

Doug,

Like you, I also use the Kadee couplers and have no interest in changing. To me they are a standard in large scale trains, as they are made to work or can be modified to fit most any of the manufacturer’s equipment.

Jon Radder said:
Kevin - Thank you for the time you have put into this. I haven't read the proposal yet, but from your description I think we are way closer to some workable standards than we have ever been.
I agree!! ;) Appears it's gonna be a crappy rainy day tomorrow so I'm sure I will get a chance to review all.