In regards to the two threads using ladder or boards.
I know three substantially large layouts where the builders actually float their track on crusher fines. Aside from a little track leveling once a year–no problems.
Just curious…
jb
Depends on where you live.
I mistakenly used that method on my first layout. Spent a year building a 600+ foot layout only to tear it all up. I did it as per the best practices on trenching, packing the roadbed and ballasting. Was a COMPLETE waste of time!!
In this climate the track would never stay level. Frost heaves we never take notice of create massive problems. I spent ALL of my time the next year trying to keep it level enough to be able to run. Layout was so large and required so much work all I did was track maintenance. Was terribly depressing.
In fact I didn’t use the RR for the next three years. It just sat there. When I built a new garage I built it two stories high and moved the RR indoors. I pulled all the track, filled in the trench and moved on.
I learned the hard way. I may build outdoors again but it will NEVER be using that method! I’ll use Fr. Fred’s PT 2X method or elevate the whole works.
Floating might work for you…Ask other outdoor railroaders in your area and see what experiences they have had.
Andre’
I’m in Massachusetts. I’ve built 2 layouts using the floating method. The winter takes its toll on the layout, between heavy snow, frost heaves, etc. “A little track leveling” may work on a small loop or point to point, but for a medium sized layout, the first several weeks of RR season is spent leveling and relining the track, and all through the season rain can wash out and mess your track up. I’m looking for as little maintenance as possible.
I’m in Northern Virginia. My first layout was floating. Everyone else that uses that method must be a lot better than I. It was much more than once a year leveling.
With a firm roadbed, you can run finer profile wheels and you are not going to accidently uncouple the cars as they encounter some vertical curve. I’m also able to use flex track and not worry about getting a rail bender to make my curves. I just bend the track and screw it down to the ladder. It’s only been up a year, but the only maintenance I’ve had to do so far is replace one of the screws holding the track in place. If something does get out of whack, I’ll back out a screw on the ladder and relevel and re-screw.
To me, it’s much easier to get a section of track level with the ladder method. I have one assembly to worry about, not a bazillion little bits of rock.
Yes, the “real” railroads “float” their track, but they use larger ballast and heavier rails - and they still experience washouts. All those crusher fines can easily “float” away during a rain. Not to mention what the hose or the family dog will do to the track when it’s not firmly anchored.
I’m not sure why folks have an aversion to solidly mounted track; it’s very necessary in the smaller scales; what makes large scale an exception?
But, as they say, it’s your railroad, do what you want. I won’t be insulted if you choose to float your track.
Our track is floated upon granite chicken grit , starter and grower , over the years . The frost heave and other changes do occur , but , elevated 3 feet , makes leveling and reballasting and maintaince of a little over 200 foot of track , REAL EASY !
Also trimming the thyme and plants up on the elevated , and the seeds in the spring and leaves in the falll is easier elevated .
Down upon the ground , I think I would use some other method .
My layout is being built on (up to) 3 feet of rock fill. Last winter there was zero frost heave. Just a little settling. At my age, if I had to build a layout on the flat ground, I’d take up another hobby. 
I’m going to float the track this year. I’ll let you know next spring whether or not I’m putting down some kind of track base.
jb
Well, I live in San Diego. Hot is over 85, cold is under 60, rain? wuzzat? snow? I’ve seen pictures. Animals? Nothing bigger than a cat.
Track on ground on a few inches of large ballast. Knees still good. Large ballast not affected by rain, lots of drainage in yard.
If I lived where there was frost heave, I’d be driving stakes in the ground and have elevated track I guess.
Probably the mildest climate in the US and easiest on trains. I actually had the track on bark chips for a while.
Regards, Greg
I am in Massachusetts and I floated my track and I am able to run year round, and my fellow club members run year round also.
When I first started, I dug a trench, lined it with weed block (keeps the gravel from mixing with the dirt), mixed 1/4 inch gravel 4 parts with 1 part stone dust.
Note that I built my RR by digging out the ground, I did not ave to use fill for my main line.
Only place I ever had trouble was when chipmunks decided to burrow under my track.
It took me only 5 minutes to repair the damage once I got the critters relocated.
John Bouck said:JB
My layout is being built on (up to) 3 feet of rock fill. Last winter there was zero frost heave. Just a little settling. At my age, if I had to build a layout on the flat ground, I'd take up another hobby. :) :) I'm going to float the track this year. I'll let you know next spring whether or not I'm putting down some kind of track base. jb
As you know, I floated my track for three years. I think I spent more time working on the track than I did running trains. Frost heave wasn’t much of a problem as there aren’t many big rocks out here. Keeping the track level was a chore, though.
I’m going to try a version of the ladder method using redwood strips that I rip from 2X6 by 12 ft planks from the big box store. I use the longer stuff because it seems to provide better, clearer wood than does the 8 ft planks. Most of the ladder will be laid directly on the ground and then covered with ballast.
We will see how that works.
I thought about using concrete, but if I decide to change my mind, then I am stuck with a 6 inch concrete path.
madwolf
I’m in Texas about half way between Abiline and Fort Worth, anyone in Texas have an opinion about floating track?
Mark Selep
Ummmmm keep the tumbleweeds off it? HEhehehehehe I’d say yer prolly safe floating track anywhere in Tx, at least in my experience being stationed there…I remeber one big storm in about 4 yeears in the San Antone area…
I live in WV right on the Ky border, I tried floating track for about 9 years…next spring was always spent redoing what I did the year before…Always doing maintenance to get things to run…spent more time being aggravated…Last year I elevated 40 inches and pulled all the track from the dirt…this is the first spring I can pick up where I left off last fall…
I live near Ft. Worth ,Mark. No problems floating it here. But I also elevated the layout a ft high with dirt. No problems with storm run off either.
Mark Selep said:
I'm in Texas about half way between Abiline and Fort Worth, anyone in Texas have an opinion about floating track?Mark Selep
Here in SE PA the freeze-thaw situation played hell with my floating track. I had a small layout for close to 12 years with floating track that was also track powered. Between leveling track every spring and fixing broken electrical connections it got to be very frustrating. When the PT retaining wall started showing signs of deterioration it gave me the excuse to start over.
The PT 2x6 base seemed like a good solution, but I didn’t want to try and hide the wood. I wanted to integrate the track work into the garden. Viewing Bruce’s logical solution to that problem, I started checking out the local big big-box hardware stores and found what I was looking for. Though a bit more labor intensive than the floating method initially, it seems to have solved the problem. Where the ladder method was installed I had no problems with the roadbed. The ballast hides the ladder framework very nicely. The yard area will retain the PT wood base. At least for now.
Good Morning Everyone,
I have been watching this post with interest since it was first started. I must tell you that I also have installed my track at ground leval and it is floating in crusher fines / ballast. I also live in Massachusetts, near the coast where we get lots of moisture and freezing conditions that cause large frost heaves infact I have seen water mains freeze at a depth of 5 feet below ground. I also can run trains all winter long once the snow has been removed from the right of way without have any heaving problems. When I install my track I dug down and removed all of the LOAM, LOAM is one of the eliments that freezes under ground and expands causing heaving. I then install weed barrier cloth 4 inches of 3/4 inch crushed stone at the bottom then a 3 inch layer of either 1/2 inch or 3/8 inch crushed stone and then top it all off with crusher fines or ballast. If you have clay that also would have to be removed due to it holding water from draining, I am lucky I don’t have a clay problems. No where in this forum have I seen anyone talk about removing the elements that cause the heaving problem that causes your frustrations
Just my 2 cents,
Ron
Squeeky Wheel Railroad
Elbow Division
Mark Selep said:
I'm in Texas about half way between Abiline and Fort Worth, anyone in Texas have an opinion about floating track?Mark Selep
Mark – I live in the San Angelo area…south of you, and I’m utilizing a modified post and ladder using 3/4" by 4x12 or 6x12 since we have so many deer and other critters that wander through the back yard. (It will be the only thing green in July and August in the surrounding two hundred acres so…)
I was concerned that with the sometimes torrential thunderstorms we (and you) get and the varmints/deer along with my overall lack of my knowledge on the topic would create maintenance night mares
I did have two cow elk wander across the pasture a couple of days ago…guess somebody on one the exotic hunting ranches nearby had a watergap wash out in last week’s storms.
It was a toss up on the consensus of people I talked to about floating or hard road bed, but I’m hoping less maintenance will overcome the added cost and additional work on the upfront side.
mark r
The three rather large layouts I mentioned when I started this thread. All floating. All located in the inland Pacific Northwest (freezing winters–hot summers, etc.)
Layout #1.
On the ground.
8 to 12 inch trench dug under the track. Weed cloth added, then filled up about 2/3 with 3/4 crushed rock. Then 8x16x2 concrete paving blocks placed end to end on top of the crushed rock. Some more crushed rock, then track and ballast. No frost heave what-so-ever.
Layout #2.
Raised on up to 2 feet of course sandy/gravely fill. Right of way tamped, leveled and ballasted. No noticeable heave.
Layout #3.
Same as layout #2.
If your raised bed is filled with something that drains quickly-----crushed rock, course sand, etc.
You minimize the frost heave.
I learned this technique while watching a professional team install a huge water feature in my next door neighbor’s backyard. Pond, creek, waterfall, the whole nine yards! The foreman said it is the base material that stops frost heave. The entire project site was dug out and filled with crushed rock that was tamped as they filled. The pond, and creek were formed in the crushed rock. Then a liner, then concrete. It’s been in place for 10 years without any settling or cracking.
I’m using the same principle on my raised layout. Filling a little, tamping, filling etc.
I went out and shot a laser yesterday and after our winter, it settled just a little over 1/2" in some places. Less than 1/4" in others.
By next year it will have reached its proctor and settling should stop.
jb
I’m in South Western Connecticut where we definitely get both a hard freeze in the winter and hot summer days. My track powered railroad is beginning it’s 4th year outdoors and utilizes a number of different roadbed methods. I run year-round. Here’s my experience with each…
Elevated PT Lumber: About 20% of the current railroad is elevated on PT lumber with the track solidly attached. I hadn’t met Fred yet when I started so I used 1x lumber. I am starting to get a little sag in places. If it ever requires rebuilding I’ll use 2x and support it more closely. So far this is an area of the railroad that requires zero maintenance other than replacing cosmetic ballast that washes away in heavy rains. On a maintenance score of 1-10 (10 being least work) this section gets a 9.
High Fill: 10% of the railroad is on a high fill. The fill is made from scraps of concrete, bricks, dirt, 3/4" granite and crusher fines. The area of the fill is under the drip line of a huge maple. Last year I added a lot of large concrete scraps just under the roadbed to keep the ballast from completely washing away in a heavy rain. This seems to have worked and only required ballasting this spring. I continued reinforcing the fill with concrete scrap this spring while ballasting. This area requires maintenance twice a year due to water flow from the tree. On a maintenance score of 1-10 (10 being least work) this section gets a 6.
Low Fill: Another 20% of the railroad is build on a low fill of 3/4" granite and crusher fines. This area fares the best, although the ballast gets under the track and raises it. This is the oldest part of the line and has been re-leveled once. It will need re-leveling this year. This section gets a a maintenance score of 6.
PT Lumber on ground: A short section (10 foot in Deep Cut) is mounted directly to 1x PT lumber and placed on the ground directly over 3/4" granite and crusher fines. It was once ballasted with crusher fines, but is now ballasted with mud. There is no sag or other issues. This section gets a a maintenance score of 9+.
Trench and Fill: Around 25% of the railroad is built on trenches filled with 3/4" granite and crusher fines. One short section of this was not trenched to preserve the roots of a Japanese Maple near the track. Most of this track fares quite well. The section over the roots raised up quite a bit last winter and is being lowered. This section gets a a maintenance score of 5.
Concrete Roadbed: The last 30% of the railroad is on concrete. This includes two independent pads for switches that are connected be either Low Fill or Trench and Fill and a 30 foot section laid on or embedded in concrete roadbed. At the switch pads the ballast gets under the switches and raises them up. Where the track is floating on concrete in ballast I have little problems. I have considered doing the entire railroad in concrete, but have not for two reasons: Labor and Permanence. I don’t want to expend the labor and I’m never certain that roadbed will not be moved in the future. If it were not for those two reasons I’d probably build all new sections on concrete. This section gets a a maintenance score of 9.
I really like the simplicity of the PVC method that Kevin used in his article. I’d like to see how that fares in the Northeast.
My next major expansion will likely be elevated 40" or so on PT lumber. The area of the High Fill is built on a retaining wall that just begs for elevated expansion coming off the wall on to bench work.
JR
A most interesting topic, and very timely. I’m sure the guys that were here for the “ops Session” may not share my opinions as they fought their way around the problems of my roadbed. All of mine that is at ground level or below ground level floats in about 6 inches of crusher fines and slag sand. I correct any out of balance by scouring the surface and scoutching the track down in the ballast until it comes up between the ties and then brush smooth and level. I’ll give it an 8. Simple recovery is as important to me as maintenance.
All raised track that is not on a bridge is raised on concrete block that are sunken in the ground to come up to level. The hollow holes of the block are filled with crusher fines and it is amazing how this holds the grade. Not really hard to do, just dig a trench the distance the block needs to be in the ground to bring to level with other ground track. Level track with crusher fines or slag sand on top of the block. Sometimes I put a thin layer of concrete along the edge of the blocks to help hold the ballast in a trough. I’ll give this a 6. Ladder track work was not in vogue when this was started 11 years ago. If I did over I might replace with ladder roadbed, but the concrete block are not worht pulling out. The maintance is higher because of ballast washing off of concrete block.
Anything on pressure treated or epoxy coated lumber has started to fail after 11 years and most of it is being replaced with steal H beams. This is only bridges and they are strong enough my grandkids use them as a balance beam. I’ll give that a 10 for maintenance, but installation and prep can be a bitch.
In the spring we have a little frost heave. Frost line in this area is 8 inches. Track raises and ballast washes away leaving the track on a crown. Repair is really fairly simple, as OI described in teh first paragraph, because you hardly haul in any new product. I do my track about twice a year as needed just like the MOW crew does on the CSX, 2 blocks away.
Outdoor track laying is really site specific. I don’t know if there is a right or wrong way. I have ssen advantages and disadvantages to many systems.
I agree. My track floats fine After four years it’s doing fine. But we arwe on the High Desert in California where the ground is sandy. Every Spring I check on level on 400 feet of track and I haven’t had to relevel any this year.
Hey Ric, how did the ground throws do this past weekend?
I think the trick is to make sure it drains. If any water collects amongst your ballast, you’ll get a heave.
Disclaimer: I don’t have any track on the ground, it’s all in a storage unit.