Large Scale Central

What the trade show vendor is dealing with

General Discussion
#1

Rather than continue to derail Chas thread, I thought I’d spell out what the guy on the other side of the counter is going through as you bargain hunt.

  1. Counterfeit money - large expos are the PERFECT place for this scam. The brisk pace means the vendor may not have time to thoroughly examine every $20 in a $200 sale.
  2. Bad checks - from completely fake ones, to those written on closed accounts, to overdrafts that folks have no intent to make good on.
  3. Fraudulent credit cards - fake cards abound. Then there are the folks with canceled cards hoping you won’t run it till after the show AND the weasels that will charge it back claiming they didn’t make the purchase.
  4. Shoplifters and thieves - from that 50c item to your entire cashbox NOTHING is safe or sacred. They often work in teams with one posing as someone with “a question” to distract, while the other lifts whatever they can and hurries away.
  5. More thieves - from those who break into your van in the parking lot to burgle your hotel room, or your house while you are out of town
  6. Quick change artists - hand you a $10 bill, distract you, then say “Excuse me, that was a $20” real cute.
  7. Fiddling Freddy - has to manhandle the merchandise and ‘try’ it, but if he breaks something will quickly disappear into the crowd. Middle aged men are worse for this than the kids!
  8. Toxic customers - from the plain smartass, to the snide superior, to the expert denigrator, to the rude SoB, to the outright abusive… at a rate of several an hour at a busy venue.
  9. Large Expenses - Table fees can run from as little $25 per 5’ table to hundreds of dollars for a 10’ x 10’ ‘booth’ depending on the venue - whether you sell a single item or not- plus fuel, food, motel, tolls, yada, yada, yada … It takes quite a few sales to break even WITHOUT giving anyone a ‘break’, more if you decide to humor every guy who thinks he’s at a Mexican bazaar.
  10. Taxes, if you tack them on top of the sale price, folks complain and refuse to buy off you. But not only do you gotta still PAY them, ya gotta remember when they are due… or get dinged another $25-100 in late penalties for even 1 day. Aaaand, if you are from out of state the dept of revenue ASSUMES you’re going to try to cheat them, so the paperwork better be complete.
  11. A breakdown or minor wreck will quickly wipe out every dollar you made. AND, since you’re in a hurry to get one way or the other, you pay through the nose when it happens.

Sounds REAL easy and pleasant, don’t it? I’m no longer in the biz, so you all can’t bash me for being ‘unprofessional’ for mentioning it. Just try remember that the guy on the other side IS a person, too. He’s simply trying to make an honest living. AND just because it’s a hobby for you, he still has some very real business stuff to worry about…

But then I only ever worked a bit over 200 shows large and small in 5 states over the years, so I’m still pretty much a neophyte.

#2

Well said Alan.

Some of the reasons I have slowed way down on doing Shows. This year it will be one big one only. Plus three small private meets where I know I will be able to sell enough to the 60 - 70 participants to cover the costs.

Nowadays it is the Internet for me.

#3

Then you got those guys on the otherside who try to rip people off. I remember going from one table seeing a new engine priced at $150 then going to another and seeing the same engine used for $50 more. Thats the stuff I hate to see. Im willing to pay the asking price if it seems reasonable. but when dealer has something almost double the price that bothers me.

#4

Mik, from another thread:
" if you’ve never had a guy take that, “but all I have is $20” approach, then whip out a wad of $50s, AND expects you to break one of them"

This “guy” would go home without the item. Plain & simple. I have no problem telling someone their money is no good here.
Try driving a Taxi at night in a major city. Nine a-holes and crooks for every decent person you deal with. They either played by my rules or their a** was put out on the side of the road. Middle of the “hood”, or middle of nowhere, it didn’t matter.
Ralph

#5
Shawn said:
Then you got those guys on the otherside who try to rip people off. I remember going from one table seeing a new engine priced at $150 then going to another and seeing the same engine used for $50 more. Thats the stuff I hate to see. Im willing to pay the asking price if it seems reasonable. but when dealer has something almost double the price that bothers me.
Wrong, wrong, wrong... Almost NOBODY (or at least no vendor) is "trying to rip you off" at most shows. SOME may have gotten a better deal at the wholesaler, or got it in trade and are willing to pass along their savings. You wanna [u]feel[/u] 'ripped off' go to a used auto parts show early, before they let the public in. I saw a pair of white leather seats change hands 3 times in 20 minutes and increase in price almost $200.... were those guys 'ripping' anybody off? Some folks may say yes, but the answer is no. Why "No?". They were taking a chance WITH THEIR OWN MONEY that the could MAYBE make more money on them. (BTW, the last guy made $10 on the seats, it rather amused me to watch them try to get even a $40 profit - they pushed the envelope and got burned) Darn few folks in ANY business sell things at a loss (unless they are really tired of looking at it, or some jerk broke it for them and ran) or they don't STAY in business. (Yes, there ARE ripoff artist vendors, but not only DON'T they generally do the big shows, they aren't generally selling a "new engine" unless it's a non-working return. By the about 3rd show you can be sure shit like that WILL come back to bite you!) - you want REAL rip-off artists look the the big sellers with tons of negative feedback or the new guy allegedly "just selling it for his buddy's widow" on fleabay.

You have NO idea what expenses the seller has. you have no idea what he paid for an item. You have no idea whether he’s got a brick and mortar store, works out of his mom’s basement, or if he will stand behind the sale. But you’re going to accuse him of “Ripping you off” because someone else is able to sell for a little less??? Don’t like the price? Don’t buy it. Or make a reasonable counteroffer WITHOUT busting his chops or having an attitude about “elsewhere”. YOU really won’t DIE if you go home empty handed. You want ‘elsewhere’s’ price, then buy it off “elsewhere”. Yes, it is EXACTLY that simple. (Oh, he ran out? Shipping costs extra? Too bad about that, fella. Maybe you should have bought it when you saw it earlier?)

#6

Mik I have to agree that Shawn does have a valid point as I have also seen this, where its most common is in used “collector” items like Lionel or now LGB, where the seller is trying to get the maximun percieved price despite what the real street price is. I have seen at a show last year LGB going for 20-30% above the original MSRP, when I asked why, the answer was simply LGBs “out of business”. This despite Marklins ownership. Its REALLY common with Lionel stuff, Theres a myth that anything stamped Lionel is worth its weight in gold so its all over the place pricewise depending on who the vendor is and what mood they are in. Some wheel and deal and have a real good basis of what something is worth and will talk to you about what and why its worth so much and all that, but then you get the guys who think their rusted out Lionel Scout set is worth $250 despite alot of broken/missing parts and enough rust that your hand looks like you’ve eaten a bag of Cheetos after you’ve put the item back down, simply because its “Lionel” or “thats what I paid for it back in '52” or my favorite “the Greenburg Guide says thats what its worth” yeah, for mint NIB condition, so part of it does fall on the vendor, if no one is buying their stuff show after show, but the guys on either side with more reasonable prices has stuff flying off the tables, that should be telling them something.

#7
Victor Smith said:
Some wheel and deal and have a real good basis of what something is worth and will talk to you about what and why its worth so much and all that, but then you get the guys who think their rusted out Lionel Scout set is worth $250 despite alot of broken/missing parts and enough rust that your hand looks like you've eaten a bag of Cheetos after you've put the item back down, simply because its "Lionel" or "thats what I paid for it back in '52" or my favorite "the Greenburg Guide says thats what its worth" yeah, for mint NIB condition, so part of it does fall on the vendor, if no one is buying their stuff show after show, but the guys on either side with more reasonable prices has stuff flying off the tables, that should be telling them something.
The simple thing to do is not pay it. They can ask whatever they want, but if its too high for me, then I wont buy it. I dont consider them trying to rip me off, but that they're disillusioned as to the value of something.
#8

Vic, Shawn, what I usually see, now granted, I only did 200+ shows, was you’ll usually get 1 or 2 guys that go around before the show looking at what everyone else has - then undercut them. When they sell out of that item, there’s suddenly a sale on something else. That doesn’t make the guy who’s NOT willing to get in a price war a thief. I doubt Mr Lowest Price is doing it because he likes you, either.

Tell you what. Ask your boss if he’d like to pay you half your salary next week…See what happens. I’ll bet you’d make him really happy too. Any time I gave somebody “a break”, it came out of my profit. Then tell your boss he can yell at you and treat you like a dog. Any time. When I had somebody badmouth my pricing IN FRONT OF OTHER CUSTOMERS because some clown was dumping stuff at wholesale “on ebay”, I HAD to smile and be polite, though my urge may well have been to stuff their obnoxious cheap hide headfirst in the nearest trash can. Just like your boss doesn’t pay you enough to be abused, being the owner of a small hobby biz sure doesn’t either.

I repeat Treat the vendors like you’d want to be treated. Unless you secretly desire to be humiliated by Madame Zelda von Whip. Then you should treat them like you’d expect your wife, mother, grandma or daughter to be treated.

#9

There is a guy that makes the shows around here. He’s had the same botchman connie for the last 5 years. He’s still trying to get MSRP for it. Asking $760.00 US if memory serves. He just can’t understand why it doesn’t move. I offered him the price advertised in the then current GR, but he thought he would find a sucker.

Then there’s the guy who’s been selling for a buddy’s estate for the last 5 years or so. He never seems to be low on stuff. He even claims that some of the stuff that is only a year or so old is from his dear departed buddy, now gone these last 6 years.

I don’t mind dickering with these guys. If I see something I just can’t do without, I usually wait until the show is winding down, then go see if it is still there. Then I’ll make him a reasonable offer so he doesn’t have to pack it back up and shlep it out to the van. My offers have been declined, but never laughed at.

editMost of the folks I’ve dealt with at shows have been very agreeable. Good folks to do business with.

#10

Yes, there are folks who see a price guide listing or auction result and assume that their beat up PoS is worth just as much. Doesn’t matter WHAT it is. Amateur sellers more often fall into this line of thinking than more experienced ones. So what? Their fantasy isn’t hurting you any. Smile, say thank you, and move right along.

There are also customers who think that just because the price “used to be” $x back in 1968, that’s how much they should STILL cost. Should the vendors be allowed to ridicule them in loud voices, too?

#11
Steve Featherkile said:
There is a guy that makes the shows around here. He's had the same botchman connie for the last 5 years. He's still trying to get MSRP for it. Asking $760.00 US if memory serves. He just can't understand why it doesn't move. .
Steve I find this far FAR more common at LHS, I know where you can still buy a brand new 1st GENERATION B'MANN SHAY for only $798.00 :O, been it that display cae for so long I doubt the gears would even move anymore ;)
#12
Mik said:
7. Fiddling Freddy - has to manhandle the merchandise and 'try' it, but if he breaks something will quickly disappear into the crowd. Middle aged men are worse for this than the kids!
You got me Mik, I guess I'm a "Fiddling Freddy". If I buy something at a show that's NIB with a sales receipt, I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to have any problems taken care of under warranty so I will usually take the box home with me unopened. But, if it's used or not in the box or looks like it's been sitting a long time I insist on a close examination because when the show is over and everybody gets out of Dodge, that sale becomes "as is" and you're on your own - Caveat Emptor.

If a vendor won’t let me handle an item or run a loco on a test track, I won’t buy from him. Here’s an example - I was at a show and stopped at a booth selling pin vises with small twist drills inside. The vendor told me the sizes of the drills but when I started to unscrew the cap to take a look at them he asked me to not do that. I asked him why and he said they might spill out. I said if they do I promise to buy the set even if some of the drills are missing. He still insisted I not open the cap. I said thank you, handed him the pin vise and walked away. I really wanted that set and was ready to pay the asking price but I wouldn’t have taken it from him if he had offered to me for free. Who in his right mind would buy a used car without first driving it?

#13

Walter, if you’re actually going to BUY, it’s one thing. If you’re 'just curious" - like a monkey, it’s another. I had a very nice little 6" lathe. When I got it, it was rust free. Even spraying it down with wd-40 after the show didn’t stop the fingerprint oil rust from starting. Nor did a “Turn knobs, $10” sign slow them down. Some shows were outside. Having to clean grit out of it every Monday got to be a real treat. And do you think the guy who spilled Coke on it gave a crap how long it took to clean up?

I also had to replace part of the valve gear on a $4000 live steam Stephenson’s Rocket locomotive because a Fiddling Freddy wasn’t satisfied with just ‘wiggling’ during his inspection, he had to see if he could yank it off sideways - stripping a #1 bolt and bending two linkages. My “Please don’t touch” and “ask before handling” signs always seemed to be written in Sanskrit or something.

And if you were asked not to, then there probably was a reason. Maybe YOU would have bought it. But the clown BEFORE you didn’t hesitate to drop them then walk away. Don’t blame the vendor. Blame your fellow hobbyists. Put yourself in HIS place. Like jewelry, you can fit a huge amount of cash in a very small space with tools (or live steam engines!) AND you can’t always simply order that ONE part that a “customer” (and I use the term loosely, since they probably didn’t buy anything) dropped. Selling an incomplete kit or tool isn’t very profitable either - that one part seems to cut what folks are willing to pay in half. Until you actually hand over the cash, you’re playing around with HIS money, not yours.

Simply put (and I’m not singling you out), if you’d be really pissed off if I came into your house and did it to you, then don’t do it to somebody else… PERIOD. I think that was taught in Kindergarten? It just seems like a lot of folks were absent that day.

#14
Mik said:
And if you were asked not to, then there probably was a reason. Maybe YOU would have bought it. But the clown BEFORE you didn't hesitate to drop them then walk away. Don't blame the vendor. Blame your fellow hobbyists.

Simply put (and I’m not singling you out), if you’d be really pissed off if I came into your house and did it to you, then don’t do it to somebody else… PERIOD. I think that was taught in Kindergarten? It just seems like a lot of folks were absent that day.


Well Mik, if there’s one thing I learned in almost 40 years as a factory rep is that no two customers are alike. And I made it my business to be able to judge a new client during the first few minutes of meeting him. Based on that evaluation I then interacted a little differently (or maybe very differently) with him than I did with the previous dozen before him. If a vendor can’t gauge the difference between a “monkey”, as you put it, and a serious guy evaluating a potential purchase, then maybe he’s in the wrong business.

#15

Wrong business? Maybe. But I think you’ll find, in a show environment, slapping the monkey’s fingers, even though his mother SHOULD have, won’t gain you customers - and you don’t HAVE “a few minutes” to size folks up. More like less than 10 seconds. Will some snap judgments be entirely wrong? Yes. That’s why you ask EVERYBODY not to touch. I repeat what I said before, until you take out your wallet and hand money over for it, it’s entirely HIS money at stake. So try to respect that.

Most shows I did, the test track was halfway across the crowded hall. And I couldn’t leave $5000+ worth of stuff unattended so a guy could ‘check out’ a $100 used locomotive. My solution was he needed to come up with the FULL purchase price, and we’d put it in an envelope. write his name on it and seal it. THEN he gets to take the engine to the test track, while I hold the envelope till he gets back… wanna guess the names I got called? Trust YOU? If you don’t trust ME, and I’m stuck right here in plain sight, why the hell SHOULD I?

You all may think I’m being a jerk. That’s fine. If you spent 10 years getting the attitude that “You don’t have a REAL business because you sell TOYS”, and “So what, if you’re out money? It’s not like it’s a ‘real’ job”, and “If he wasn’t supposed to play with it why did you have it out (on display)?”, I think you might see things just a bit differently… It IS very much a ‘real’ business. He spent HIS ‘real’ money on that item. And it’s on display for you to look at before you buy. Looking involves eyes, not fingers - until you are pretty sure you really want it, even then, if he asks you not to fiddle with it, respect his wishes. Try asking him to show it to you instead. Most vendors will be more than happy to do that - even if he is also trying to catch the SoB that’s been shoplifting from him in the act at the same time.

Believe me, there are AT LEAST 500 jerk customers out there to every jerk vendor, You only see the jerk vendor, but he’s seen all 500 of those toxic customers - and that’s probably just today, often more than once… And sometimes, maybe the vendor ISN’T really such “jerk” at all, he’s just getting gunshy from getting abused, and has simply had enough of it for one day.

“Wrong business”? Anymore retail is the “wrong business” for ANYBODY who doesn’t totally enjoy being treated EXACTLY like dogshit stuck on the bottom of a shoe. It has gotten THAT bad in the last 20 years. (And HOBBY retail is about the only career that gets you even less respect than being a public school teacher! - even JANITORS get treated better…)

And if you(plural) hate me for saying it, I’m sorry, but SOMEBODY really needs to.

#16

The reason there are more “jerk” customers than vendors…is simply because there are more customers.
I’m sure the percentage of “jerks” is probably the same across the board.

People have simply become too hateful and jaded.
Yesterday I was driving back to the shop after making a delivery. I was behind the owner of a local retail landscape supply.
He was pulling a trailer with a John Deere and traveling from 20-35 mph below the speed limit. A dozen cars are piled up behind me, including one riding my bumper.
So I passed him on a long straight. No traffic coming from the other direction, just a simple pass.
I get back to the shop and my boss tells me he got a complaint about me driving crazy and way too fast. That I was possibly drunk. The man didn’t give his name, but stated he was pulling a trailer.

This man is apparently so miserable in his own life, he has nothing better to do than try to make other people miserable too.
Now, he has lost a customer, as I have made purchases from him before and would probably have made future purchases.

He is lucky I am a better man than him. I know where his business is, I even know where his home is. I am also known and respected by
enough people in our small county that I could pass the word and have an impact on his business.

One day he’ll pull this crap on someone who isn’t so nice, and I’ll be reading about it in the local paper.
Ralph

#17

“The Customer is Always Right” is the one of the major contributors to the ‘jerkiness’ of customers. The opinion that “my way is always right” has led to an entitled self-view and i-can-be-a-jerk attitude so prevalent today with customers in ANY business. Listen to the other customers sometimes the next time you’re in a restaurant, or at a store. Not only does it annoy everybody, but having a management view that “the customer is always right” leads to low morale with the on-the-front-line staff. Here’s a good read about it.

http://positivesharing.com/2006/07/why-the-customer-is-always-right-results-in-bad-customer-service/

Having been everything from a part time flunky in a lumber yard to store manager in an auto parts chain, we were taught from day one that “if the guy is a problem, get rid of him POLITELY”.

#18

Dealing with the unhappy customer seems to be a large part of my job. Sometimes it can even be fun, you just have to have the right attitude to get to what is really the problem. Fortunately, it is very seldom something that our employees have done wrong. If it is something we did incorrectly, we try to resolve that immediately. Next option past me is usually a Sheriff’s Deputy or a Corp of Engineer Ranger. Alcohol seems to be a factor many times, when the situation turns uncivil. Since we our a Corps of Engineers Concession, providing a marina on Federal Property, the priority is many times out of the employees control. All employees operate under these guidelines - Keep it Safe, Keep it Clean, Satisfy the Corps, Satisfy the Customer. If it is safe, clean and within the guidelines of the Federal government, which probably includes breathing incorrectly on Federal Property, sometimes its best somebody goes someplace else. All of our customers make us happy, some when they show up and some when they leave.

#19
Ric Golding said:
Dealing with the unhappy customer seems to be a large part of my job. Sometimes it can even be fun, you just have to have the right attitude to get to what is really the problem. Fortunately, it is very seldom something that our employees have done wrong. If it is something we did incorrectly, we try to resolve that immediately. Next option past me is usually a Sheriff's Deputy or a Corp of Engineer Ranger. Alcohol seems to be a factor many times, when the situation turns uncivil. Since we our a Corps of Engineers Concession, providing a marina on Federal Property, the priority is many times out of the employees control. All employees operate under these guidelines - Keep it Safe, Keep it Clean, Satisfy the Corps, Satisfy the Customer. If it is safe, clean and within the guidelines of the Federal government, which probably includes breathing incorrectly on Federal Property, sometimes its best somebody goes someplace else. All of our customers make us happy, some when they show up and some when they leave.
100% agree. Dealing with customer problems is my job as well. The owner has been beaten up by customers so much he no longer wants to deal with them for fear he'll tell them whet he's really thinking :) It's something I've been dealing with all my working life, and like you I enjoy it. My first rule is don't let them piss you off, no matter how rude and/or wrong they are. If you stay cool while they call you every name in the book, pretty soon they realize you are a decent person and are willing to work with you to find a solution.

Your last sentence says it all. I’m going to share that with my staff :smiley:

EDIT - Apparently I can not refer to urination with a slang term.

#20
Ric Golding said:
Dealing with the unhappy customer seems to be a large part of my job. Sometimes it can even be fun, you just have to have the right attitude to get to what is really the problem. Fortunately, it is very seldom something that our employees have done wrong. If it is something we did incorrectly, we try to resolve that immediately. Next option past me is usually a Sheriff's Deputy or a Corp of Engineer Ranger. Alcohol seems to be a factor many times, when the situation turns uncivil. Since we our a Corps of Engineers Concession, providing a marina on Federal Property, the priority is many times out of the employees control. All employees operate under these guidelines - Keep it Safe, Keep it Clean, Satisfy the Corps, Satisfy the Customer. If it is safe, clean and within the guidelines of the Federal government, which probably includes breathing incorrectly on Federal Property, sometimes its best somebody goes someplace else. All of our customers make us happy, some when they show up and some when they leave.
Thats whay I love my job. If you dont like the rule and dont follow it then you can deal with me. LOL