Large Scale Central

What power and electronics should I invest in?

Electronics Power and Sound
#1

I am looking to find out recommendations on what power and control electronics I should purchase.

I am looking to build a garden layout in the future and I am starting to investigate what are my options. I have been collecting G scale trains (Aristocraft, USA, LGB) for about 10 years and now I want to set up my outdoor layout.

Requirements:
I would like to be able to power multiple trains - not on the same line - but potentially keep it as an option.
I would like to be able to control sound (have not invested in any sound capabilities as of yet - but I want to)
I would like to be able to control the trains while walking around (hands-free).
I would like the capability to control accessories (lights and switches) remotely.
I am not looking at cost at this time because I want to get what is right for this layout that I plan to keep for years to come.

Any recommendations would be helpful. I know this is a broad question but any input would be great.

Thanks!

Dan Perrott
Indianapolis, IN

#2

Requirements: I would like to be able to power multiple trains - not on the same line - but potentially keep it as an option.
Battery powered would be good…

Requirements: I would like to be able to control sound (have not invested in any sound capabilities as of yet - but I want to)
Numerous remote control systems now have that capability…

Requirements: I would like to be able to control the trains while walking around (hands-free).
Battery operation will provide this…

Requirements: I would like the capability to control accessories (lights and switches) remotely.
Some remote control systems provide this option, also…

Running electric to a large outside layout can be real troublesome after a few years, keeping electrical conductivity… Cleaning of the track is also required… Some say that Stainless steel track does not need to be cleaned, but I would think that depends on the location and types of trees around… Tree sap can cause any track to get dirty…

Track for battery powered equipment still needs to be checked before & while running… Twigs, leaves, acorns, walnuts, etc, etc…

There are numerous remote systems available to the modeler… Your choice would be the best match to your requirements, and only you can make that final decision…

my 2 cents worth…

#3

The new Aristo Revolution will do all you ask, including throwing switches when they are equipped with the new receivers.
As mentioned above, battery power, with the Revo is a good way to go.
I use both Airwire and Revo, Phoenix sound with battery power. As I can afford to, I will be switching to Revolution completely.

#4

Dan,
I would not be looking at the ‘big picture’. With electronics changing daily, who knows what is around the corner. I would start small and work up from there, rather than ‘investing’ in a complete system at the outset. Your present ‘wishlist needs’ may not necessarily be your eventual needs, as tastes change with time and experience.

   Some years ago, I was convinced to purchase the Train Engineer.  At the time it would do, in theory,  all that I asked of it.  I purchased numerous receivers, two transmitters, several accessory control switches to throw switches remotely,  plus a big power supply to run the whole show. Out of the box one receiver failed and another failed with just four hours easy usage.  The second transmitter is still unused as are the expensive accessory boxes to remotely operate the switches.  I find the unit cumbersome to use and am not enthused with its reliability, or lack there of.  In theory,  it seemed like the ideal system to run my railroad.  In practice,  I prefer a fixed analogue throttle and electrically operated switches.  I would need a really big think before I thought about purchasing a completely new system.  As they say, once bitten, twice shy.
#5

Tim,
Just as a matter of interest, how many switches would you be wanting to throw with the R/C?
Can any of them be ganged together in pairs for double ended sidings?

#6

Tony,
I have around forty switches on the railroad (some are paired electrically). Initially, I was going to go the R/C route for switch control, but I found selecting individual frequencies/channels, on the TE, so cumbersome and time consuming that I elected not to use the TE switch controls and went to fixed LGB #51750 packs. All my switches are hardwired to ganged LGB control boxes. I can troubleshoot a hardwire problem, but am lost with this ethernet airwave stuff.

#7

Dan,
If you are going to be following your train around anyway, why not just go with hand throw switches, and forgo all the trouble of wiring the switches, and then trying to remember which switch is which?

#8

One of the advantages of cordless R/C control, battery or track power, is that the operator is usually right where the turnouts are and can easily operate them by hand.
Probably the only reason to R/C the switches is if they are hard to reach.

#9

I’m not a fan of remote switches outdoors for one reason only–ballast. It will work into the points and keep them from closing. It doesn’t matter how far away the nearest piece of loose anything may be. Debris hops aboard the train and deposits itself very nicely in the switch, waiting to derail the next train. Having said that, it’s certainly doable with some of the various systems on the market. So long as you don’t mind fixing derailed trains as they pick points that don’t close all the way, there’s no reason you can’t throw the switches and ligths remotely.

As for systems that will do what you need, the Revolution and the Airwire or NCE G-wire cabs with whatever DCC decoders you might want to use are workable options. The Revolution is a proprietary system, so you can only use their transmitter and receivers. You’re banking on the fact that they’ll be around for a while, producing the system. The advantage is that you know all the components will work together, since they’re all part of the same system. Aristo has a good track record in the hobby, though. Their accessory receiver is not yet on the market, so I can’t speak to how it works.

The DCC stuff is an open protocol, meaning anyone can engineer products to those standards. Since it’s not manufacturer specific, you’re open to choose from whoever’s product best suits your need. If one manufacturer goes under, you simply switch to the next guy’s decoder and keep going. The downside is that even though they’re all built to a standard protocol, there may be quirks or incompabilities at certain levels between components. That may or may not be an issue, depending on specific products.

Both systems run equally well on battery or track power, and allow for wireless walkaround control. I use both on my railroad, and each has its strengths and weaknesses. You’ll find passionate devotees of both on the various forums. My suggestion would be to seek out someone in your area who’s using the various systems and test-drive it yourself. There’s so much that’s personally subjective in terms of user interfaces, programming, wiring, etc. that you truly won’t know which one is best for you without personal experience. (In fact, using both, I’m still very much loathe to choose one over the other.)

Later,

K

#10

Most people here run battery, I think. I chose to run my layout via DCC, for various reasons. It’s more expensive upfront but cheaper in the long run. I can run multiple trains at once with lots of lights and sound without worrying about battery drain. DCC lets you control switches remotely, either individually or in gangs, from the same handheld that runs the trains.* It only takes two wires to the track, although I have six to make sure I get good conductivity. Once the DCC system is set up, adding remote control and sound is as easy as dropping a sound and motor decoder, like the QSI decoder, into the loco–no wiring the ESC to the third party soundcard. DCC gives you lots of fiddly control over engine and sound parameters, should you want it, but it’s really easy for most things, just push the button and go. It gets complicated if you want it.

The downside is:

A: you have to get track connectivity set up right, which means most of the time rail clamps on joints, which adds cost
B: You have to buy the DCC system–expensive upfront
C: You have to keep the track reasonably clean.

maybe D: programming the CVs can get a little fiddly. But there are freeware programs that make it really easy
Track cleaning has never been a bog deal for me–when I first read about it, I thought it was going to be hard, but really, all I do is run a track cleaning car around a couple times. Sometimes I have to clean loco wheels: I would never have to do that with battery. Other than that, it’s really a non-issue.

Track or battery power–it’s worth considering how you want to run the thing. I kind of like to sit back with a refreshing beverage and watch 'em run. Others like to shunt boxcars back and forth and operate like a real railroad. Some people have lots of storage room for battery packs and chargers and trains, some don’t. I think both methods have real advantages, depending on how you want to run

*with dcc there is no “wiring of switches” to worry about. You just get a DCC switch motor, connect it to the two rails, and that’s it. You can control lights the same way, either in trains or in buildings

#11

Comment: DO look at the big picture, don’t make an uninformed decision and wind up spending money and time on something that does not make sense. (Tim I cannot see how you can say this) You can make informed decisions without a crystal ball or the ability to see into the future…

Requirements:
I would like to be able to power multiple trains - not on the same line - but potentially keep it as an option.
Good idea, double heading locos on a train, and multiple trains makes sense, you can do with battery or track.

I would like to be able to control sound (have not invested in any sound capabilities as of yet - but I want to)
Good idea, sound adds a great additional dimension and fun factor, again many systems can supply this, but there are some limitations

I would like to be able to control the trains while walking around (hands-free).
Many systems provide this…

I would like the capability to control accessories (lights and switches) remotely.
Now you are really down to things like DCC, Aristo Revolution, Airwire… you can do a few with other systems, but it is limited and clunky, whereas these systems are designed to handle switch machines (both stall and momentary), and there are accessory decoders to control lights and have lots of effects very inexpensively.

I am not looking at cost at this time because I want to get what is right for this layout that I plan to keep for years to come.
Smart man.

Since you are planning for the future, I would eliminate the Aristo system right off, since it’s interface to sound units and switches is very limited, both in terms of capability and products available, not to mention proprietary in nature.

Now it would help if you have a predilection towards battery power or track power. If you are remotely controlling accessories and switches, then you probably don’t want batteries, and sound systems also eat a significant amount of power.

So you might want to think now about where you will wind up, number of locos, operating capability, in your FINAL configuration.

The Airwire folks are somewhat proprietary, but there are 2 manufacturers that make the motor controllers, and the airwire ones can interface to virtually any DCC sound board, which are plentiful and cheap, many manufacturers. This would be my recommendation for battery power.

For track power, I would consider traditional DCC or MTH. MTH is proprietary right now, but the new version which is poised for release soon will be DCC compatible, so it’s almost a moot point.

This will PO all the battery people, but most of the RC systems are limited and are more designed for a one on one controller to loco, not a lot of sound capability, and of course they are proprietary to the degree of their control electronics.

Regards, Greg

p.s. I run long trains, for hours at a time, and use multiple units and have all my switches remote controlled, I use DCC track power on SS rails with air operated switches controlled by generic DCC switch machine controllers. I have wireless control and everything works great.

#12

Greg,
Dan is looking at the long term. To make a final decision at the beginning, locks one into a current proprietary system. One only has to look at Aristo-craft to see how many frequency-based non-compatible systems that they have churned out (several versions of the 27 meg TE, 75 meg, planned 900 meg and now 2,4 gig). 5.4 gig is already gaining acceptance in the model helicopter world - what system is next to be tried? DCC is an alternative, but as I stated in initial post, advancing electronics and their application to our hobby, could see today’s systems outdated in months. My recommendation was to set up a basic operating system and find a unit that meets one’s needs as time progresses and one’s expectations are realised , both financially and operationally on the railroad.

        You have settled on DCC as a means of controlling your railroad.  Dan  needs to find his way,  rather than being 'convinced' that one system is far superior to all others.  From my reading,  the Revolution is based on 1995 mobile phone protocol technology - am I mistaken?  The current year is 2010!  People's expectations take time to materialise and tastes change over time.  Why lock oneself into a system now that may or may not suit one's purpose in the future, or even be supported by the manufacturer a few years from now?
#13

Thanks for all of your replies. Now I have allot to think about. Seems like the first decision is battery or track power. Coming from the indoor layout world (O and G), I would tend to lean towards track power because it is what I know and understand.

Seems like the big question now is battery versus track power. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? I would think that battery power would become more expensive with all of the extra equipment that I would have to purchase and maintain. Whereas, track power requires keeping the track clean and maintaining conductivity.

What are everyones thoughts on battery versus track power?

Dan

#14

You’re really asking for trouble buddy! This is like a holy war.
None of the advantages/disadvantages of either are insurmountable

As I see it, the advantages of battery are:

Never having to clean the track, except of debris
never having to worry about wiring reverse loops or wyes
Initially cheaper than DCC
You can run on any G scale layout, anywhere, any time

Disadvantages of battery, as I see it
Where do you put the batteries, and how do you recharge them easily/conveniently?
higher long term cost
shorter run times
more complex wiring of sound
limited remote control of accessories

Advantages of DCC
lower long term cost
highly sophisticated control of motor and sound
no limits on run time/use of lights and sound

Disadvantages of DCC
High initial costs
need to clean track
complexity n some aspects of programming

DCC is pricey upfront, but once you have everything, and good continuity established, it’s cheap. My local retailer sells QSI cards for $125. That’s the total cost for adding remote control and sound. If I were running on battery, I’d have to buy the batteries, and a remote control unit, and a standalone sound card. The sound card alone is more than $125. But keep in mind, I’ve spent a lot of money getting the track right and buying the DCC gear.

You can run track power and have remote control without DCC–that’s the Aristo Revolution system. You still need to wire up a sound card and to have it run reliably on track power, you need to ad a six in ch long capacitor board. I’d avoid it, myself. But lots of people lie it and say it’s easy to use. You can run constant DC track power and DCC over the air–I did the for a while. It’s more expensive than conventional DCC on the rails.

Track cleaning–people talk about it like it’s some kind of horrible chore–it has never been a big deal for me. Just run the track car around. But it seems to be a big deal for some people and it may be highly dependent on where you live, even down to what kind of trees you have. I’ll also admit that one of the things I do to any loco is add as many track power pickup points as possible–for example, adding power pickup to the tender wheels of a steamer–so maybe one of the reasons DCC works well for me is modifying the locos for optimum results

#15

Mike - You are getting your spiel down pat. This has got to be the most common topic on these forums. (Second most popular is the lack of understanding of LEDs). I think we should each just submit a “sticky note” promoting our favorite control method. :slight_smile:

#16

Wha’d I tell ya Dan!! See what I mean “firestorm” “can of worms” probably isn’t over yet!! It’s your railroad do what you think is best!! Hah LOL Regal

#17

Dan,

When questions similar to yours are raised it mostly produces a quite definite answer supporting one method of operating or the other.

Whilst my back yard RR is probably much smaller than yours and I do not wish for the degree of capabilities that you have expressed in your initial post, I decided some two years ago that I would use, at differing times obviously, track and battery power. The battery option uses a trailing car - the car can quickly be varied according to consist.

I usually run trains using track power but certain weather conditions dictate that battery power would be the better option. It also means that when I visit other folks railroads, taking some of my stock to run, I can generally use their preferred power choice.

This, of course does not answer your question about which control system to get but one post at least did suggest caution. Softly, softly, catchee monkey they say. lol

#18

Dan,
Ask around the Indianapolis area what the most used method is, and give serious consideration to going with that. That way you will have lots of folks to help you out when you get stuck, and stuck you will occasionally get. If you ask any ten of us, you will probably get 15 or 20 ideas. :stuck_out_tongue:

Now, the next question you will have to answer is: Do you want a roundy round railroad where the locomotive chases its’ caboose, or do you want a point to point railroad that operates like a railroad should operate? I’ll bet you can’t figure out what my bias is. :lol:

#19

When I first started making battery R/C systems designed specifically for Large Scale trains in 1985, I was virtually the only one doing it Worldwide. I don’t mean using what were already available for boats and cars etc. I mean designed specifically for use with Trains, as the requirements are different.
Now there are plenty making them.
RCS/BELTROL, G Scale Graphics, AristoCraft, NCE, AirWire, Brian Jones, Locolinc, etc. My apologies if I have left anyone out.
The point being is that battery R/C is popular. Very popular. There has to be many reasons for that.
The telling factor is that, once established with battery R/C, most users would never think of going back to track power.
Even those who try a hybrid approach give up on the track power eventually.
Track power works for some. But obviously not everyone . Mr Polk has openly declared that battery R/C will rule the roost eventually.

#20
TonyWalsham said:
[i][/i] Even those who try a hybrid approach give up on the track power eventually. [i][/i]
I am gradually moving toward that position. I built my railroad using Stainless Steel track and track power with block control. As of last summer it was still working fine with very little continuity maintenance and only soft cloth cleaning. I put together a quick battery trail car system for my Aristo locos using a trackside TE receiver and a drill battery. I've used that along with track power for several years. This year I have yet to run a track powered loco outside. Not that I probably couldn't, I just haven't bothered.