What if…the Great Depression never happened? Or the Bottom never dropped out of the silver market, What if narrow guage lines survived WWII in tip top shape? What would the North American rail network look like? Hmmmmmmmmm…
Silver stays valid, so the DRGW and RGS continue to expand, instead of floundering. They continue to expand, and eventually reach Utah, and push across to the Sierras, taking the rougher routes that standard ga track wont go. The RRs prosper through WWI, and the 20s.
The economy is good, and the depression is more like a recession on the local level, so WWII isnt as world-wide. Oil doesnt begin to push out coal as a home-heating source, so coal is still a major player locally. Since the railroads didnt contract through the 30s and 40s, and interurban survived through WWII, there are less cars on the road. Mainline steam is still running strong in the 1960s, though these new-fangled things called diesels are appearing. The 1960s environmentalists dont like them, though, because the emissions coming from them is far worse than the large-particulate stuff from a well running coal fired locomotive.
Actually, Bart, the shift away from narrow gauge had begun many years before the depression. IIRC, you used to be able to travel by NG from the upper midwest all the way down into TX. But over the years the lines either disappeared or were converted to SG. So by the time of the Great Depression, most of this action was over. And what was left were mostly small NG shortlines which were vulnerable to competing highway transportation. There were exceptions, of course, like the extensive DRGW system in the west. But even that was sort of an aberration, as it had mostly disappeared by the Depression, except for the San Juan Extension which hung on until the late 1960’s to serve the Four Corners oil and gas boom, which the highways of the time were ill equipped to handle.
What I am saying is that although the Depression may have accelerated the demise of the NG railroads, their death was inevitable - regardless.
CJ
Gee John, you can sure pop a bubble. Let the boy dream, he lives in his own world, anyway.
Bart, I think you probably would still be fireman, but you might someday be promoted to an engineer, instead of a chief.
John Pritchard said:
Actually, Bart, the shift away from narrow gauge had begun many years before the depression. IIRC, you used to be able to travel by NG from the upper midwest all the way down into TX. But over the years the lines either disappeared or were converted to SG. So by the time of the Great Depression, most of this action was over. And what was left were mostly small NG shortlines which were vulnerable to competing highway transportation. There were exceptions, of course, like the extensive DRGW system in the west. But even that was sort of an aberration, as it had mostly disappeared by the Depression, except for the San Juan Extension which hung on until the late 1960's to serve the Four Corners oil and gas boom, which the highways of the time were ill equipped to handle.What I am saying is that although the Depression may have accelerated the demise of the NG railroads, their death was inevitable - regardless.
CJ
Alright…i KNOW that…but the original question stands…What If?
My bet from this side of the Atlantic is,given the get up and go of the small gauge lines , they would have toddled along quite nicely , with the men at the face doing the work to keep management out of the shot ,
bending the rules and making it work --but they would not have survived the do-gooders and the health and Safety mob , no sir . Health and safety is a job killer in the UK . In fact it kills more than jobs , kiddies swings in a park have to be accident proof , they can’t skip incase they trip on the rope , oh , god , don’t get me going .
This is all in order to employ more and more guvviment noses in your business and in the trough .
Rebel against them before it’s too late ! To arms , citizens !
Michel le frog revolutionaire
I have always wondered what the greenies would have thought about the comparison in emmission of diesels vs steam…especially if the technology in metallurgy had been up to snuff to create a coal turbine locomotive…Hmmmmm a narrow gauge coal turbine…what if…
Yeah, but wouldn’t be fun to scorch them with a blast of steam as they were protesting along the side of the tracks. Whooops, did I write what I was thinking, again? Damn it.
Can you imagine what the Bunny & Tree Hugger’s would say if a loco stormed by with a tender full of bad oil, belching out black smoke trailing behind as far as the eye could see. And then the same smoke settling down on their picnic at the park.
In today’s day and age, any new steam loco would have to meet all the EPA requirements.
Those oldies that run today are grandfathered in.
Of course, when the modern dismals use up all the oil reserves, they might have to revert back to coal.
Or nuclear.
(I’d insert all kinds of "smileys here if I could. 
:-).
jb
You couldn’t make it up dept.-…
From this morning’s paper (edited a bit for sarcastic reasons )
"A pensioner was ordered off a bus today for carrying a one gallon tin of household paint . It was deemed to be illegal and dangerous . It was water based emulsion . But it was paint in a can and the driver was an asshole , so the poor old guy was told to walk ,er sorry , it contravened the carriage of dangerous goods act 200—blah , blah . . The old guy fell into a local coffee house and when the owner heard the story , he took the old chap home in his car . "
The bus company said rules is rules , and how do you spell "immature and self aggrandising driver ".
End of story , and it happens more and more , giving birth to more and more watchers , employed of course , by the new commie (sorry , Labour ) guvmunt .
Did you know that it takes about half the working population to monitor the rules of the other half who pay taxes for them to do it ?
coming to a district near you shortly believe it , before it’s too late .
Mike
Like John I’m afraid I too am a bubble buster. Narrow gauge generally was as John said on the decline. Even if the mining districts on the D&RGW had survived longer the busiest ones or those on otherwise economic routes would have been standard gauged. It’s unlikely there would have been any more narrow gauge running in a non-depression 1960 era than there actually was.
As to diesels it was WWII that delayed dieselisation. By 1939 the diesel was already making minor inroads even if mostly in switching and passenger service. Railroads during WWII had to make do mostly with what they had and could rebuild. Many an out of service steamer retired during the depths of the depression was pulled from the dead line and completely rebuilt in railroad shops. Although some new steamers were built during the war GM was tied up with war production and could devote little time and effort to producing diesel locomotives for the domestic market. Baldwin, Lima and Alco were still primarily steam locomotive builders.
The gist of it is that the narrow gauge picture would have been little changed and dieselisation would have probably come up to five years earlier.
This is the premise of the CCRy.
Colorado Consolidated.
The California and Nevada was finished, crossing the Carson and Colorado at Candelaria, Nevada, giving connection to that line, and in the Bay, SPC and NPC, at the southern end C&C connected to Death Valey Railway, with connection on towards Las Vegas.
California and Nevada continued to the planned terminus at Salina, Utah, with the D&RGW Narrow Gauge…
You could travel from East of the Rockies to San Francisco bay, and barge traffic to the White Pass.
I think that you have to admit , though , that Narrow Gauge is the best , there is a something about it that defies logic for a start , and that , in this age of computers can only be a good thing .
I think the real attraction of Narrow is that it is found at the back of beyond . I know of no Narrow Line that is not scenic , and would defy anyone to find Standard lines as pretty .
In its short length , The White Pass Line covers superb scenery , different weather within short distances–I got sunburn there when they were ploughing the snow off the upper lines–there is a harbour with ships at one end , mountain scenery all around , The Alaska Highway at the other end , bears abound , --hey , why don’t you go and see for yourselves ? You have to go into Canada while you’re there , but they ain’t too much to be scared of really , the history of the goldrush around there is fascinating , the abandoned villages --oh , I could go on all night about it , by golly , git off your bums and go there afore yer too old .
Mike , who did .
Curmudgeon said:
This is the premise of the CCRy. Colorado Consolidated.You could travel from East of the Rockies to San Francisco bay, and barge traffic to the White Pass.
You forgot that all coastal barges must pull into the port of Port Orford!
…we could all start to rethink, at this stage:…“What if Bart’s Dog House never got moved…” Would the world keep turning…would Bart keep modelling…would we have anything else to kid Bart about…?
I don't have a real problem on my pike......I don't model any real local......or time frame.......I just have a NG railroad that is stuck with steam and sort of a Western North American look.
I do sort of stick to a 1930-40 time frame, but if a piece of rolling stock looks about right…who cares. In my little world…it looks fine to me…
Yes; code 215 rail looks better, but in the real world it won't stand up to some of the abuse I have put it through.....and the switches are much more expensive....Yes I could hand lay track and switches.......but would it be still useable for relay after 20 years........My code 332 is fequently reused as relay, and very few of the original switches have been discarded yet....... My thoughts are more towards longetivity than close to scale practises, in track, and roadbed. I want to operate, not do maintenannce.
Any time we decide to do a realignment, it is usually to improve operation, and to upgrade to higher standards…
The pike has seen many improvements in the 20 odd years of it’s existance…we learn from our mistakes, and other peoples’ too…
Fr.Fred
I’m quite satisfied with not being stuck in the scale / gauge battles. I like a great model and a good running piece of equipment like everyone else, but try to keep in mind they are all toys. The KVRwy is a representation of the modern tourist/railroad museum/club of railroad enthusiast that want to run stuff and operate. Look at some of the “ride on” railroads and you will see all scales blended and used. One guy is riding on a speeder that looks like no prototype, you ever seen and another is operating a live steamer that is an exact scale model of a ten wheeler, except for the cushion he sits on and the foot pegs alongside the tender. I don’t know if “What if?” is ever asked except maybe, “What if we put a wye at the end of the line, so we don’t have to back all the way back to here?”
“What if” is always a great question. I hope I never totally find the answer.