Large Scale Central

What gives you the right?

General Discussion
#21

Bob et el,

Let me add a caveat; I am NOT a lawyer, I have no legal training. I am NOT an expert on copyright law. I have been involved with the copyright issues for 30+ years. I have sued, and won a copyright violation lawsuit. I have stopped the illegal usage of my copyrighted material on several occasions. That said.

The problem with stuff that you obtained off the internet, in most cases is that a lot of the stuff was put there without the knowledge or permission of the copyright owner. Most of the time it’s used under the incorrect assumption that “it’s all right to do so”, do to their ignorance of the laws, in most cases from someone making assumptions, not based on fact.

If one was to read the copyright laws there IS an “exception” for educational use. BUT, it’s legal usage is spelled out very plainly, is in fact, rather restrictive, and still requires proper crediting of the materials owner.

Purchasing an item, that is protected under the copyright laws ( and almost everything is), only gives you the right to use that item, as intended by the copyright owner. You buy an item, not the rights to go with that item.

As a train example: You buy a ( one ) part from a “Third Party” supplier. Wow its great just what you needed. You bought it paid good money for it, and it yours. You want several more, so it’s easy, you make a mold and cast some more, “It’s OK cause I’m only making a few for myself and not selling them”. Giving a few more to your buddies is “OK cause I’m not selling them or making a profit”. WRONG ON ALL ACCOUNTS! Making a copy of someones copyrighted item even for your own usage is illegal! Giving them away is also illegal

We will not even get into the MORAL or ethical issues!

Bottom line… If you did not create it, ask permission before using it. Including making copies of it

#22

Dave,

What you say is preciously why people are protective of their information. You are correct in that because it is on the internet doesn’t mean the rightful owner put it there or intended it to be copied. and doing so without their consent is illegal.

On a practical note though if you are the rightful owner and you do put it on the nest you have lost control of it. Maybe not legally but practically. That’s why I even though I love to give out info I am reluctant to share what is not mine to share. Because once I do then I have lost control of someone else’s property.

It is why I started this conversation in the first place. It is a very fine line between wanting to disperse information in the hobby for all to be better researchers or modelers but we don’t have the right to purchase, receive, grab, or distribute freely that which is not ours. Your analogy of the part is spot on.

If I buy a plan from XYZ magazine for a cool 1:20.3 box car so that I can make box cars I do not have the right to scan it and distribute it freely to others let alone sell them.

I am even careful when it comes to supposedly copyright expired info. I have read the law many times and discussed it with several people in publishing and it is not cut and dry. It sounds cut and dry. Anything produced and published before 1923 in the US is in public domain. That’s what the law says. But like all laws there are loop holes and conditions.

Be careful.

#23

Over the years I have found many images that I posted on other fora that are now used when you select image from the menu. Sometimes it’s guns, more often it’s trains, but nowhere on Google does it state or imply that MY images have been used with MY permission.

Nobody has EVER contacted me and asked about using any of gthese images, simply because they have been taken out of context, from a post someplace on the internet, and although the post may have had my name on it, the image in the post does not.

So, IF possible, whenever I want to use an image that does not belong to me, and it is possible to do so, I ask the creator/originator of that image. If this is not possible, and there is text on the image that might enable it to be traced back to the originator, I always quote it, with thanks and an acknowledgement in my verbiage.

If I quote words, then I give credit - as I did with Graham Langer’s comment in another thread - whenever it is possible to do so. If not a person, then a source is quoted, and an appreciative thank you accompanies my post.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS

#24

I guess the advent of the Internet muddied the waters a lot more, but the problem has been around for a long time before that.

That is one of the reasons why I add this: © 2001/2014 by H-J. Mueller All Rights Reserved Designed for 1280x768 Last Update 2014/12/01 webmaster rhb_hj_at_yahoo.ca to all my hobby website pages.
But dragging up some ancient history (happened more than 25 years ago) Back East I belonged to several operating groups, all of them being round-robin affairs. Occasionally guests would be invited after “clearing” the guest with the host. Most of the time that worked very well, except on one occasion when we had a guest at our place. Apart from operating trains I showed the assembly some of my most recent KISS developments.
What a surprise when one of those developments was passed of by “the guest” as his own in one of Kalmbach’s publications, lock, stock and barrel … and honorarium!

I was surprised, but my fellow group members, and all their MRR buddies who then heard about it, where outraged. After that that Guest had very, very few invites from the uninitiated.
There was also that outfit who ripped off one of my videos from VIMEO — back in the days when my permissions were set to allow VIMEO members to download the original upload file — and posted it as their own on YouTube and monetized it. Their YouTube upload was gone within 48 hours.
BTW I also smartened up and started adding the copyright inserts to most of my videos.

One just never knows.

#25

Dang! :frowning:

Ignorance WAS bliss…

#26

I have a website on Fred Harvey, his hotels, restaurants, lunch rooms, ranches, tours, et. It features lots of pictures. I took many myself, but by the time I started the site, most of them had been pulled down.

I went searching for pix and found many in institutions, where Harvey documents had been sent. I had looked through those archives, and asked permission to use them Their first responses were along the lines of “if you pay, you can use them,” but I told them why I wanted them, and they all relented, IF I indicated where I got them, and that I had permission to use them.

Now, when someone sends me a picture of their aunt or cousin who was a Harvey employee, I still ask them if it’s OK to put them on the web. They always say yes, so I’m in the clear there too.

Your mileage may vary!

#27

I’m reviving this because not very many days ago this thread made me feel um er ah um not quite right for Pictures I’ve posted without permission because I’ve never asked.

Now there have been a couple of threads with pics and no ‘Posted by permission’ notes.

I side stepped it by linking a pic to a post from Google images.

What about books that google has put online, how do we treat those?

John

#28

You just set the link to Google and that’s that.

#29

John,

I agree with HJ. If someone else has published it online for the public I (should, I am still guilty of not doing it) put a link to where I got it from. I am not sure anyone would take you to task for using an image that is readily available on the net if you gave a location to where you have obtained it.Especially if your not making a profit with it. A quick “Got this photo from www.whatever.com” I think would suffice.

Another thought is often times I see something and want more detail. If you post the link then I can go dig deeper. For instance that photo you shared of the 2 foot gauge loco. You posted t for one reason but it peaked my interest. If a link accompanied it I could have seen more.

Just a thought.

#30

If I have to write down a link for every pic I save, there won’t be many coming.

The link I posted for the streamlined caboose took me 20 minutes to re-find the pic and copy the link.

But who has done that besides me since this thread?

#31

I usually try to include the link, unless the pic is posted via hyperlink. I figure that if someone is that interested, they cash click “quote,” and get the link that way. If posting from one of the RR photo archives, I will mention the artist, and the site, at the very least.

It usually doesn’t require much effort, just copy and paste.

#32

@Devon, " Especially if your not making a profit with it." Profit, or no profit, does not have a thing to do with it. For profit, i.e., making money, or other compensation, just makes you more libel for larger compensatory damages to be judged against you, and punitive amounts may be levied. For No profit, still make it illegal.

All this being said:

The real question is, Bottom line… Will the copyright holder go after you for compensation of their copyright violation? Am I going to hire a lawyer and sue you for posting one of my copyright pics, most likely not, if it was an innocent use, I’ll probably let you know to ask first, or take it down, or both. Try using a “Mickey Mouse” Character for advertising some product, and you can count on a very harsh letter really quick from Disney’s lawyers. Same goes for NASCAR, NFL, MLB and etc. Wether they do or don’t, doesn’t make it any less OK to steal there work. We’re getting into “morals” and ethics here, and I will not preach.

I don’t think “Linking” is always needed, Credit Yes, or as good as a source as you have. Remembering that the “Link” that you have may well be to a picture that was posted without the owners consent in the first place. It also may help in tracking down the person that posted the picture without the copyright holders permission.

#33

I suspect that our limited use here falls under the “Fair Use Doctrine.”

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

#34

Actually Fair Use is a very murky swamp to wade into. Tread lightly.

#35

Devon Sinsley said:

John,

I agree with HJ. If someone else has published it online for the public I (should, I am still guilty of not doing it) put a link to where I got it from. I am not sure anyone would take you to task for using an image that is readily available on the net if you gave a location to where you have obtained it.Especially if your not making a profit with it. A quick “Got this photo from www.whatever.com” I think would suffice.

Another thought is often times I see something and want more detail. If you post the link then I can go dig deeper. For instance that photo you shared of the 2 foot gauge loco. You posted t for one reason but it peaked my interest. If a link accompanied it I could have seen more.

Just a thought.

Devon,

But you can just as easily only set the link i.e. even if it is a picture don’t link to it as a picture , just as a hyper-link. With a short caption. Let those who want to see it click on the link.

On the old LSC software anything that had the .jpg or whatever graphic file ending would automatically show as a graphic file but it won’t if it says http://www.largescalecentral.com/public/admin/logo.png instead in this version. Click on the link and up pops the logo in a new window, at least that’s what it does in OPERA.

#36

Andrew Moore said:

Actually Fair Use is a very murky swamp to wade into. Tread lightly.

With hip-waders?

#37

Dave Taylor said:

@Devon, " Especially if your not making a profit with it." Profit, or no profit, does not have a thing to do with it. For profit, i.e., making money, or other compensation, just makes you more libel for larger compensatory damages to be judged against you, and punitive amounts may be levied. For No profit, still make it illegal.

All this being said:

The real question is, Bottom line… Will the copyright holder go after you for compensation of their copyright violation? Am I going to hire a lawyer and sue you for posting one of my copyright pics, most likely not, if it was an innocent use, I’ll probably let you know to ask first, or take it down, or both. Try using a “Mickey Mouse” Character for advertising some product, and you can count on a very harsh letter really quick from Disney’s lawyers. Same goes for NASCAR, NFL, MLB and etc. Wether they do or don’t, doesn’t make it any less OK to steal there work. We’re getting into “morals” and ethics here, and I will not preach.

I don’t think “Linking” is always needed, Credit Yes, or as good as a source as you have. Remembering that the “Link” that you have may well be to a picture that was posted without the owners consent in the first place. It also may help in tracking down the person that posted the picture without the copyright holders permission.

Dave,

I agree with what you said legally. Bottom line you are correct that any use for any reason of copyrighted material with out permission is illegal. I can’t argue with that.

I was coming from a more practical aspect which will require a little common sense. If I go to Bachmann’s website and copy a picture of a “connie” and paste it here to explain what am talking about it is in violation of the law. Did Bachmann intend that image to be protected and pursue violators for using it, unlikely. Now If I take a picture of a loco down at the local historical society and post it here and say last week I saw this, will I pursue someone for using it elsewhere, unlikely. But if I go out to a wonderful bridge and catch a wonderful picture of a locomotive highlighted by a backdrop of snow and mountains at sunset and offer the print for sale on Ebay will I get peeved if someone copies it and sells it. you bet.

So when I am using pictures with historical, artistic, or other intrinsic value I try (though I am guilty of not always doing it)to obtain permission to distribute it. That is if the picture is not in public domain. I have spent some effort on understanding what that means. Then I do my best to have permission or at the very least provide credit.

When I started this thread it was an ethical question more than a legal one. There are uses that I believe are technically illegal but common sense dictates that it is not an issue (the Bachmann example) I think ethically there is no problem. If there is any indication that the original owner/producer would have a problem with me redistributing it I wont do it with out written permission. If the item in question is in public domain and readily accessible I will use it. If it is something that is arguably in public domain by age and expired copyright but held in a private collection I will get permission as if it were copyrighted. These are ethical issues as I doubt many of us intend to intentionally do wrong and are likely to never be pursued legally. I believe in answering to higher authority so ethics to me is a stronger law than the legal one.

#38

Hans-Joerg Mueller said:

Andrew Moore said:

Actually Fair Use is a very murky swamp to wade into. Tread lightly.

With hip-waders?

Just as murky is public domain and expired copyright. Maybe chest waders

#39

I revived this thread, because I was feeling guilty and then similar stuff is posted with out permission or links…

So it’s ok for some, but not all?

I don’t use train services for my pics, I visit museums, universities and other archival resources. I suppose I could save by institution, but it makes my stupid filing system easier if I put pics in headings by; state or job. Nowhere is there a way to ‘save’ the link too … in my skill set.

Sign me disgruntled … ethics sez no mo.

#40

Well, the only way forward then, is to not share any information, unless you can prove in court that you hold clear title to said information.

Shut down the internet!