Large Scale Central

V2 of what I would want to achieve.

General Discussion
#1

Version 2 of what I may want to achieve hopefully with pictures this time and examples to make myself more clear. I’ve been continually reading and researching and have re-thought some of my original ideas.

Scale will still be 1:29 because USA Trains makes a GP38-2 CP Rail engine and that is what I want to see. I do not see any other manufacturer offering this in any other scale.

I am not going with a particular era or setting to model. So freelance. That said, I won’t be mixing and matching just anything. This doesn’t change. It means the electric steam engine I want must be close enough to 1:29 so that it looks properly sized to the GP-38. I am also picky on what the steam engine looks like. This seemed to cause the most confusion last time trying to balance look/scale/radius. Hopefully example photo makes it clear no regarding styles I like.

Radius available. I should be able to do a minimum radius of 5 feet for any loop the GP-38 will be on, but have not had any great ideas yet on how to fit something into the yard that I would be comfortable with and happy with. I will make an additional post with my random thoughts on what can be done in the yard. To loop the steam where I want to see it I have a radius of just 2.5 feet barring a brainstorm in design. This also seemed to be an area of confusion as any electric steam I found that can handle that radius does not have the look I’m after or is too far out of scale to 1:29 to be acceptable.

I don’t know if a Kadee coupler switch in is required anymore. I may be fine with what USA trains makes since it appear every engine and car I would want they make…

I am considering now using the AirWire drop in system for battery powering the diesel engines now over Revolution because it would greatly cut down on costs and give me further leeway on a track plans without concern on reversing loops, Wyes, etc. The AirWire has the plug for a Phoenix P8 board which is what I was looking at for the Rev system as well. I am still on the fence with the whole control system and probably because lack of knowledge on if everything can be converted easily. I’d have to hire out the mods either way.

I am now considering brass rail over the TrainLI Nickel Brass track especially if I use battery power. I may have over-estimated how much cleaning was needed after visiting a layout here where the guy ran a Scotchbrite pad over the track a couple times a year and that was it. He was using track power and had no problems with just one power feed and 150 feet of track. Brass also seems to offer the most options on switches and suppliers. I suspect flex track would still be a requirement over sectional.

I still want at least two trains to be able to run at once in both hands-on and automatic for when I just want to sit and watch.

I still hope to have at least on over/under area of track, but if you can see my pictures you know this is a challenge. I haven’t done the elevations yet, but there won’t be a lot of natural terrain change for risers.

I want to fit the layout in the existing look of the yard to compliment the yard not make the yard fit a railway. I am not opposed to relocating/removing some plants, but trees and concrete won’t be removed. I did remove shrubs that were along the fence which will give more options. Those shrubs were going to be removed anyway it just may be a fortunate timing for a railroad as the replacement plants will now be delayed until a decision is made on a train vs. planting something new only to move it later.

I do struggle with the hobby aspect, like any hobby I have had. It’s probably the biggest roadblock to just getting started. I know guys here have said it is never finished and that is the hobby. I have to try and wrap my head around it vs. having a project that needs to have a start and finish. I am still not keen on this being yet another solo venture as it appears that would be the case here.

So if anyone can look at this drawing and see something special please comment.

Thanks.

Bart

Photo 1 & 2 could be areas where I could remove some grass to allow for 10’ diameters.

Photo 3 shows grass that I would prefer not to remove so one can move from pavers to grass area easily with mower, etc…

photo 4 shows the area I was hoping for the steam engine run. It is in a main viewing area, but 5’ diameters is all I can fit.

I’ll save additional comments for another post.

#2

Looks good Bart.

1:29 was tough for me to pick, coming from HO and N where they would never even consider such a gross mismatch in gauge and scale. But truly you don’t notice it. It’s the scale where there is the most affordable and wide selection. You will find a lot of steamers available, so I think you are in good shape.

On your steam loco, you might have to do a bit of customization to get what you want, perhaps starting with an Aristo consolidation?

On couplers, USAT is really the least compatible and at a weird height. But there are people who have changed everything to USAT. What you can do is make a “conversion car” with 2 different couplers so you don’t have to convert everything if you have different couplers. My advice is still go Kadee, and convert each car as you buy it, that will make it painless in time and money. Waiting to convert everything at one time is a “wall” many people run into. In this case, everyone that did it bit by bit were happy, and the people who did not wound up with a hodge podge and then it became a big deal AND they were plagued by stuff that did not work together.

There is no way AirWire is cheaper than the Revolution, I’m curious how you came to this conclusion. The revolution is the most inexpensive full function wireless sound system. AirWire allows you to use different sound units and has more flexibility, and the sound systems in the additional decoder will be better than the Revolution, but no way cheaper, AirWire is more expensive than any other way, more than track power, track power DCC, more than the Revolution. So, if you really are making the choice on cost, please double check your calculations.

If you are sure you are going battery power, use Aluminum rail, forget brass. If you are going track power and you don’t want to ever clean oxidation, stainless is a good choice. The nickel plated stuff is top drawer, but pretty darn expensive. So if the driving force is cost, aluminum, if the driving force is track power and no maintenance stainless or nickel plated, if the driving force is track power and cost, then brass.

But you then state you want to run 2 trains on automatic. That’s almost impossible with R/C, so why are you considering the revolution and airwire? I’m really confused here, neither of those 2 are good choices for track power.

Greg

#3

I believe two separate loops are involved.

Check out this site;

http://www.gscalegraphics.net/store/c1/Featured_Products.html

I’m changing my controllers to newer. A simple magnetic critter control will automate the Passenger trains with random station stops while a new RailBoss4 and Lok Sound will go in my C-16 2-8-0. Dodging the other train and switching is plenty of action for me.

Might I suggest you invade slightly on the patio. The posts already establish an inner border. Elevated 4-6" you could build a trestle and support an arc of track, bumping the diameter a foot or more… A trestle allows washing dirt off as you usually do …

John

#4

See comments embedded. To me there are still many puzzles to sort out. I do not have a clear picture of what it could look like yet or how it can work within my yard and enhance the yard. It shouldn’t detract from what is there now or be in the way to have to walk or trip over. The yard is not that big. Thanks.

Bart

Greg Elmassian said:

Looks good Bart.

1:29 was tough for me to pick, coming from HO and N where they would never even consider such a gross mismatch in gauge and scale. But truly you don’t notice it. It’s the scale where there is the most affordable and wide selection. You will find a lot of steamers available, so I think you are in good shape.

I disagree on “lots of steamers”. I’ve found none in this scale that can handle 5 foot diameters. My example steamer is Bachmann which is must larger than 1:29 as are Piko which is even less desirable to me. My example is also the “look” I am after so while there are some steamers that can handle 5’ they don’t look at all what I want and in scales that are not 1:29. This is why last time I said I didn’t think it was possible. Guys wanted examples of what I liked hence the example. I still do not think it is possible unless I have a big brain storm on increasing the radius and a big bag of money for a 1:29 steamer from USAT.

On your steam loco, you might have to do a bit of customization to get what you want, perhaps starting with an Aristo consolidation?

I wouldn’t even attempt it. I’m not a modeller or an engineer so if it isn’t off the shelf it wouldn’t help me.

On couplers, USAT is really the least compatible and at a weird height. But there are people who have changed everything to USAT. What you can do is make a “conversion car” with 2 different couplers so you don’t have to convert everything if you have different couplers. My advice is still go Kadee, and convert each car as you buy it, that will make it painless in time and money. Waiting to convert everything at one time is a “wall” many people run into. In this case, everyone that did it bit by bit were happy, and the people who did not wound up with a hodge podge and then it became a big deal AND they were plagued by stuff that did not work together.

But does it matter if all the rolling stock is USAT product? Also, as above, not a modeller. Mods would always be a stressful, if not impossible, thing for me.

There is no way AirWire is cheaper than the Revolution, I’m curious how you came to this conclusion. The revolution is the most inexpensive full function wireless sound system. AirWire allows you to use different sound units and has more flexibility, and the sound systems in the additional decoder will be better than the Revolution, but no way cheaper, AirWire is more expensive than any other way, more than track power, track power DCC, more than the Revolution. So, if you really are making the choice on cost, please double check your calculations.

If you are sure you are going battery power, use Aluminum rail, forget brass. If you are going track power and you don’t want to ever clean oxidation, stainless is a good choice. The nickel plated stuff is top drawer, but pretty darn expensive. So if the driving force is cost, aluminum, if the driving force is track power and no maintenance stainless or nickel plated, if the driving force is track power and cost, then brass.

Well with the REV system it needed a P/S, probably more expensive track, likely a power cable running alongside the track to add in a power feed every 10 feet or so plus the controller and the receivers. The Airwire had a control unit, receiver and a battery pack. Cheaper track, no power runs. Prices of the units were similar so the saving was in the track and wiring. Am I missing something with either? Both made use of the P8 sound card.

Don’t know about aluminum due to the baking summer temps in that backyard which can get up to 50C easily on a bright day. Maybe when the trees fully grow in to the south it would be liveable out there mid-morning to mid-afternoon, but not for a few years yet.

But you then state you want to run 2 trains on automatic. That’s almost impossible with R/C, so why are you considering the revolution and airwire? I’m really confused here, neither of those 2 are good choices for track power.

Are you telling me that these modern controllers cannot assign a cab to each loco and run them around together each with their own speed and direction? Maybe “automatic” is not the best term. If I was not in control, just sitting back and watching they would be on their own loops, but there may be times I would want to run the show and put them on the same line for such things as passing/meeting on sidings, doing something with some spurs, etc… But if no R/C can handle that then what the heck. I had that problem when I was 10 and had one power pack. Tell me this isn’t so!

Greg

#5

By the time chairs are added around the table and people start to move around any invasion is just a disaster in the making. Had I come up with something workable in that area it probably would have involved running the track close to the little wall so things are visible but no where near where people will step on anything. Bart

John Caughey said:

I believe two separate loops are involved.

Check out this site;

http://www.gscalegraphics.net/store/c1/Featured_Products.html

I’m changing my controllers to newer. A simple magnetic critter control will automate the Passenger trains with random station stops while a new RailBoss4 and Lok Sound will go in my C-16 2-8-0. Dodging the other train and switching is plenty of action for me.

Might I suggest you invade slightly on the patio. The posts already establish an inner border. Elevated 4-6" you could build a trestle and support an arc of track, bumping the diameter a foot or more… A trestle allows washing dirt off as you usually do …

John

#6

If the trains are on separate loops (tracks) then yes, you should be able to set the speed of each, and then just sit and watch.

I don’t know about the newer USA stuff, but back in 2002, when I built my railroad, I had issues with USA couplers uncoupling just because…Replacing them with KaDees solved that.

Its just my 2 cents worth.

#7

Kadees are great, but for long trains they must be body mounted, short trains can be truck mounted.

#1 is usually used for 1/29 and 1/32, G are for 1/20.3. Myself, I try to use G only for truck mounting, I do not care if they are too big.

Note that on short 2 axle cars (HLW kits and LGB FRR) I have body mounted Kadee’s and run on a 29 inch diameter circle.

And metal wheels are great for lowering the center of gravity and increasing car weight for better handling through curves. Also helps outdoors in the wind.

#8

In Photo #3, what is the purpose of the retaining wall?

In the conversation with Greg you said…

On your steam loco, you might have to do a bit of customization to get what you want, perhaps starting with an Aristo consolidation?

I wouldn’t even attempt it. I’m not a modeller or an engineer so if it isn’t off the shelf it wouldn’t help me.

Don’t sell yourself short. Many of us (myself included) got started modeling by just jumping in and trying something. Stay with your plan for Ready-to-Run to get started, but don’t be afraid to take the plunge and try and build something. Structures seem, to me, to be the simplest place to start.

#9

The wall is used for additional seating and level to hold cups when the normal patio furniture is out there. At some point the wall will probably be removed since there is ground shift every winter that is slowly tipping it outwards. At some point is not yet.

If I were to model anything it would be a building, some bridges/trestle if I can do anything that requires a bridge. I can guarantee no attempt would be made on anything else. I’ve tried stuff like that before and it is just not my skill.

I get the impression reading responses here though that any kind of control system out there is incapable of allowing independent control on the same track so are all you guys running just one train at a time or have a separate loop for every train? This doesn’t seem right.

Bart

#10

REVO works very well with battery power. Trons are Trons

#11

Bart; my Canadian neighbour…

Do yourself a favour, and try to get out and visit an outdoor Large Scale railroad, as many of them as you can find, and do it way before you start anything. You will most likely not find too many around your location, and probably none with R/C battery.

If you can travel, for a few days, and drop in around Ottawa, you might actually see a lot of different locomotives, and rolling stock, and actually see the equipment you seem to want, in service.

You would be welcome here, if you care to visit. Ottawa has a number of outdoor LS railroads, and after visiting, and seeing first hand…even actually having your hands on a throttle…you may clear up some of your many “Unknowns”…you might even find friends you didn’t know you had, and skills that are right there, in your hands.

In the mean time; visit the OVGRS web page at: www.ovgrs.org/ and get some ideas and knowledge about everything you are thinking of.

I hope your Dominion/Canada Day went well.

Fred Mills

#12

The nearest to me is 3.5 hours away and I did visit him. Was a simple figure 8 using just a basic power pack. It is doubtful I would get much further than this since I am not a traveller and even a 5 hour trip is about 5 hours too long. As I said, it is a solo hobby for me if a hobby at all. No one is coming over to help or advise, it’s all on me.

Bart

#13

But apparently with what is said here it is incapable of running two or more trains on the same track independent of each other in speed and direction. Seems like a pretty fancy/expensive system to control just one train per track/loop. Bart

Steve Featherkile said:

REVO works very well with battery power. Trons are Trons

#14

Bart,
I believe you can program 50 loco’s into a revolution remote
and have individual control of each one using either track or battery
Power.

David

#15

That would make more sense. Can’t imagine AirWire would be any different. Bart

David Beck said:
Bart, I believe you can program 50 loco’s into a revolution remote and have individual control of each one using either track or battery Power. David

#16

As Greg stated the revolution is the cheaper system,
Both systems will work battery.
If you are not happy with the revolution sound you can
Add a phoenix card.

David

#17

I have no opinion on either system since they both will work with the P8 sound card and I assume they both work in a similar fashion for control. I didn’t see where either on had much of a price difference. The jury is still out on battery vs. track power. Battery just seems easier in terms of wiring and layout options.

There are still bigger problems to worry about such as can I come up with an idea that give me what I want in the limited space I have?

Bart

#18

“Limited Space”… you probably won’t get what you “Dream of” in that limited space… that is a given. But don’t let that hinder your quest for some sort of a roundy-roundy pike, and the enjoyment you may experience.

Gentlemen; please, lets not use the word “Cheaper” when comparing R/C systems. Cheaper gives the impression of less quality, which has not been proven in either case. Please use the description “Less expensive”, even if it takes a second more of your time, to type in an extra word.

Thank you.

Fred Mills

#19

Bart, somehow you have gotten confused.

The revolution will work track or battery and it INCLUDES sound.

AirWire never includes sound, you either use a G3 and add a separate sound card (usually a phoenix), or you use the Convrtr and add a full DCC motor and sound decoder.

Maybe it would be best to have separate threads so we can help eliminate confusion like this. The revolution is the least expensive r/c system with sound and near-DCC features. It’s a great deal. It has it’s pro’s and con’s but it should be considered.

In my opinion, I would go with a deadrail type of system, with the Stanton controllers:

Completely generic, and basically you “piggy back” on all the technology already developed for other scales.

Greg

#20

It doesn’t take much to confuse me!

I was looking at Phoenix sound in both options so that didn’t figure in to my price comparisons. Strictly controller and receiver was very close in price between the two.

Never have ran across this Stanton device so more to confuse!

Bart