Large Scale Central

USA Trains SD70 MAC truck problems

General Discussion
#33
bill said:
Curmudgeon said:
I've worked on more than you've seen. I was trying to help. I know what can break, and I've fixed a lot.

You aren’t answering any quesions, so I’m done wasting my time.


I thought so you didn’t answer none of mine either. So you don’t own any 6 axle USA’s I figured that from seeing
what you have posted.
I agree you are wasting your time since you have no valuable input.
Nothing personal we agree to disagree.

Hey Bill,

One very basic question: did you approach USAT regarding this problem? What did they reply? Any help?

#34
bill said:
Curmudgeon said:
I've worked on more than you've seen. I was trying to help. I know what can break, and I've fixed a lot.

You aren’t answering any quesions, so I’m done wasting my time.


I thought so you didn’t answer none of mine either. So you don’t own any 6 axle USA’s I figured that from seeing
what you have posted.
I agree you are wasting your time since you have no valuable input.
Nothing personal we agree to disagree.

Bill, With respect.
That sounds awfully personal to me.

Dave Goodson is probably the best known Large Scaler around. He has an expertise at diagnosing and fixing design problems in a wide range of LS locos that is unequalled in our hobby.
Dave reviews locos for Garden Railways magazine, so he knows what he is talking about.
If you had cared to read what Dave wrote earlier you would understand that he has probably had in his hands more 3 axle USA drives than you have ever seen.
Lighten up. With your attitude you are unlikely to get any help at all.
You can’t diagnose problems without having the correct information.
Take this advice and try answering his questions.

BTW. I agree the USAT drive is a crap design. As is the AC 3 axle truck.
In my 20+ years experience with LS, the only only 3 axle diesel truck that I think is any good design wise, is the one made by LGB in the WP&Y diesel. I have never ever seen a failure. They got it right first time.

#35
TonyWalsham said:
bill said:
Curmudgeon said:
I've worked on more than you've seen. I was trying to help. I know what can break, and I've fixed a lot.

You aren’t answering any quesions, so I’m done wasting my time.


I thought so you didn’t answer none of mine either. So you don’t own any 6 axle USA’s I figured that from seeing
what you have posted.
I agree you are wasting your time since you have no valuable input.
Nothing personal we agree to disagree.

Bill, With respect.
That sounds awfully personal to me.

Dave Goodson is probably the best known Large Scaler around. He has an expertise at diagnosing and fixing design problems in a wide range of LS locos that is unequalled in our hobby.
Dave reviews locos for Garden Railways magazine, so he knows what he is talking about.
If you had cared to read what Dave wrote earlier you would understand that he has probably had in his hands more 3 axle USA drives than you have ever seen.
Lighten up. With your attitude you are unlikely to get any help at all.
You can’t diagnose problems without having the correct information.
Take this advice and try answering his questions.

BTW. I agree the USAT drive is a crap design. As is the AC 3 axle truck.
In my 20+ years experience with LS, the only only 3 axle diesel truck that I think is any good design wise, is the one made by LGB in the WP&Y diesel. I have never ever seen a failure. They got it right first time.


As for the comments I had know knowledge who it was because the person didn’t say who it was so I think you can understand that it was confusing where he was going. So once again nothing personal and I am sorry if anyone was offended.
I do agree about what you think of USA’s crap design. My question would be has Mr. Goodson contacted USA with this problem I think
he would carry more weight with his reputation vs someone like me.

#36
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
bill said:
Curmudgeon said:
I've worked on more than you've seen. I was trying to help. I know what can break, and I've fixed a lot.

You aren’t answering any quesions, so I’m done wasting my time.


I thought so you didn’t answer none of mine either. So you don’t own any 6 axle USA’s I figured that from seeing
what you have posted.
I agree you are wasting your time since you have no valuable input.
Nothing personal we agree to disagree.

Hey Bill,

One very basic question: did you approach USAT regarding this problem? What did they reply? Any help?


No I have not as of yet. But I intend too.
Thanks.

#37
bill said:
No I have not as of yet. But I intend too. Thanks.
Bill

If I had bought 10 USAT 6 axle diesels and I had those problems, I would by now have contacted USAT to find out what they could do regarding the problems.

If OTOH I would like to present USAT with the solution to their problem then I would take the worst of the offending 6 axle diesels and get to work, eliminating one “cause” at a time until it was perfect. And I would keep exact notes and pictures to prove what worked and what didn’t work.

Usually works for me, but it takes time and persistence. I would even go as far as setting up a test track with “special curves” just for that purpose, one that has absolutely perfect track.

#38

I forgot to mention, I would start with only one truck, that leaves one of the offenders on the engine. Turn the engine around by 180º and you should be able to replicate the same old problem and watch the solution getting to work.

Oh yeah, it will take quite some work and if you screw up a truck, best have a spare on hand. :wink: :slight_smile:

#39
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
I forgot to mention, I would start with only one truck, that leaves one of the offenders on the engine. Turn the engine around by 180º and you should be able to replicate the same old problem and watch the solution getting to work.

Oh yeah, it will take quite some work and if you screw up a truck, best have a spare on hand. :wink: :slight_smile:


Hans:
You are correct thanks for the tips. I am planning on doing that also I live about 2 hours away from where USA trains is located.
I want to go there in person and I know who to see to show them what is wrong and what the fix should be. That was the whole purpose
of the post is to find out how many people have this problem. They don’t need to know about track issues they are hobbyists also and
have a knowledge that no rail is perfect. What they want to know is why in certain situations the trucks don’t react to curves etc. properly.

#40

Bill,
You sound like you have quite a bit of experience with track, switches, etc.
So forgive me and others on this board for assuming you were a rookie.
TOC is TOC, blunt, to the point, and knows more about lokies than myself and most people here.
You have to know him to love him. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Anyway:
It isn’t your track, or all of your rolling stock will have some kind of problem.
Put all ten lokies on the track, one at a time. Run them one direction, then the other.
Turn them around and repeat the same procedure.
Remove all the “good” ones.
How many bad ones are there? One, two?
If they all do it, then it is:
You are prolly the unluckiest dude in the world to buy 10 bad lokies; or there is something else.
The one or two–run them, one at a time, backwards, forwards, pick them up and reverse them and do the same. The lead truck becomes the trailing truck, etc.
Is it the lead truck that derails all the time. If so, the motor drive is a little off and climbing the rail. It may have a different RPM than it’s sisters in the block. Just slightly. Faster or slower.
It is definitely the swivel pilot. Could be tweaked a little to one side. Could be off-level because of the connecting bar, Could be anything!
Remove the offending swivel truck and replace it with one of your good ones off of another lokie.
Test again. It should not derail.
Put the good one back in it’s original truck and send the offenders to USA. (Not the whole lokie–just the motor block) and tell them to replace it!
That’s about all you can do.

As Tony stated, no large scale manufacturer has perfected the three axle truck except LGB. That’s why I stick with small two axle dismals.
Bachman, Delton couldn’t even produce a three wheel steam truck without blinding a driver or two–(Even though some real steamers had blind center drivers). The aforementioned, Bach, etc, couldn’t even get their blind driver to ride on the rail-head!
LGB has flanged drivers in all their products except the RhB Crok! Mogul, Mike, Mallets–all flanged!
But I digress…

jb
TOG

#41
John Bouck said:
Bill, You sound like you have quite a bit of experience with track, switches, etc. So forgive me and others on this board for assuming you were a rookie. TOC is TOC, blunt, to the point, and knows more about lokies than myself and most people here. You have to know him to love him. :) :)

Anyway:
It isn’t your track, or all of your rolling stock will have some kind of problem.
Put all ten lokies on the track, one at a time. Run them one direction, then the other.
Turn them around and repeat the same procedure.
Remove all the “good” ones.
How many bad ones are there? One, two?
If they all do it, then it is:
You are prolly the unluckiest dude in the world to buy 10 bad lokies; or there is something else.
The one or two–run them, one at a time, backwards, forwards, pick them up and reverse them and do the same. The lead truck becomes the trailing truck, etc.
Is it the lead truck that derails all the time. If so, the motor drive is a little off and climbing the rail. It may have a different RPM than it’s sisters in the block. Just slightly. Faster or slower.
It is definitely the swivel pilot. Could be tweaked a little to one side. Could be off-level because of the connecting bar, Could be anything!
Remove the offending swivel truck and replace it with one of your good ones off of another lokie.
Test again. It should not derail.
Put the good one back in it’s original truck and send the offenders to USA. (Not the whole lokie–just the motor block) and tell them to replace it!
That’s about all you can do.

As Tony stated, no large scale manufacturer has perfected the three axle truck except LGB. That’s why I stick with small two axle dismals.
Bachman, Delton couldn’t even produce a three wheel steam truck without blinding a driver or two–(Even though some real steamers had blind center drivers). The aforementioned, Bach, etc, couldn’t even get their blind driver to ride on the rail-head!
LGB has flanged drivers in all their products except the RhB Crok! Mogul, Mike, Mallets–all flanged!
But I digress…

jb
TOG


Thanks John I will go over all 10 with a fine tooth comb and thanks for the tips too. As of now I don’t know how many of the 10 that I own have problems but I will check them all that is for sure. Plus I don’t know what is the main problem with the truck until I check each one out by checking things we have gone over thru our discussions. Once again thanks!

#42

To toss my small piece of experience on the pile here…

I have one new piece of rolling stock.

Recently, when running trains the other evening, I noticed that one car was riding up the rail on one specific point. Hmm.

Looking close, it was just the new car, none of the others seemed to have any problems. I was certain it must be the car. I replaced the wheels with different axles. The problem improved, but some symptoms still persisted. Instead of riding up the rail, it now just made a hard thunk at the switch.

I know that I don’t have anywhere close to as much stock as you other members, nor do I have the vast experience of the forum, but I was dead certain it was the car.

But the switch was out of gauge. Close inspection, a bit of filing and tweaking, adjusting, more filing…

It was so very strange that only one car had a problem with it.

Fixed the track, everything works great now. (I was so dead sure it was the car, too)

#43

Had you gone through the rest of your cars first (befroe fixing the switch) and regauged them to “specs” etc. there is a good bet you would have made matters worse…not better.

#44
Warren Mumpower said:
Had you gone through the rest of your cars first (befroe fixing the switch) and regauged them to "specs" etc. there is a good bet you would have made matters worse....not better.
I agree I am with Warren on this one. That is what I would do first. Chances are something is out of whack with the trucks of the freight car. Like there could be too much or not enough of play with the axles that sit inside the truck frame etc. If it is the switch I usually check the frog and so fourth. The best way to find out if it is the switch is to take the problem car change the trucks with one of your good cars of course the same style of tuck IE Aristo roller bearing etc. so now the problem car with have good trucks that you already know that go over the switch and see if it acts up. Also make sure the car has decent weight to it also. Those are pretty much basic trouble shooting things you can do. If the car runs great then replace the trucks. All of my freight cars I use Aristo roller bearings because they run well.
#45

Sorry to allude to any grandeur on my railway, but think smaller.

The problematic car is a simple, two-axle LGB tanker. I swapped both axles with a different car, a Bachmann passenger coach that has been on the display shelf for a small while. This did two things: swapped wheel sets with a known good pair, swapped plastic wheels with the stock Bachmann metal units.

I don’t claim to know enough about the kinetics/physics of the faulty car and the switch, but the problem did get me to examine the switch. And now, after the point has been filed, and the gauge corrected, original wheels swapped back into the car, the problem has disappeared.

#46

Here is a picture of my problem:

#47

The whole point of my post is that the entire remainder of my fleet had absolutely no problem with this point. Zero. Zilch. Zippy.

So, from a reasonable problem solving standpoint, if only one car has the problem, one would think that the car is the problem.

Instead, only one car was incapable of dealing with the out-of-gauge issue… Gauge fixed, problem sorted, happy engineer.

#48
dave wiskochil said:
The whole point of my post is that the entire remainder of my fleet had absolutely no problem with this point. Zero. Zilch. Zippy.

So, from a reasonable problem solving standpoint, if only one car has the problem, one would think that the car is the problem.

Instead, only one car was incapable of dealing with the out-of-gauge issue… Gauge fixed, problem sorted, happy engineer.


My Bachman Climax is the loco I run to find bad trackwork first. Everything else is very forgiving of sloppy turnouts, odd gauge problems, and generally weird curves. The climax on the other hand will show up my lack of skill in short order!

#49
dave wiskochil said:
The whole point of my post is that the entire remainder of my fleet had absolutely no problem with this point. Zero. Zilch. Zippy.

So, from a reasonable problem solving standpoint, if only one car has the problem, one would think that the car is the problem.

Instead, only one car was incapable of dealing with the out-of-gauge issue… Gauge fixed, problem sorted, happy engineer.


Dave,
This one of the conundrums of largescale! :frowning: :frowning:
As soon as you think you have it whipped, something else happens.
I can be running trains on my indoor layout, which has level track, and constant temperature, for days. And one time a car derails for no apparent reason.
Put back on the track, and it never derails again.
Go figger…

#50
John Bouck said:
dave wiskochil said:
The whole point of my post is that the entire remainder of my fleet had absolutely no problem with this point. Zero. Zilch. Zippy.

So, from a reasonable problem solving standpoint, if only one car has the problem, one would think that the car is the problem.

Instead, only one car was incapable of dealing with the out-of-gauge issue… Gauge fixed, problem sorted, happy engineer.


Dave,
This one of the conundrums of largescale! :frowning: :frowning:
As soon as you think you have it whipped, something else happens.
I can be running trains on my indoor layout, which has level track, and constant temperature, for days. And one time a car derails for no apparent reason.
Put back on the track, and it never derails again.
Go figger…

TOG

That is not peculiar to LS, in HOm I use a RhB D4025 Baggage to test. Long wheelbase and all the stuff, any flaws that sucker will find them!

#51

Bill,

I have to side with the old timers here. TOC is like myself and been doing this practically forever and a day, but just when you think you have seen eveything and done everything, Large Scale will make a liar out of you.

Yes the USA trucks have more than a few weak points but they do work for most folks. We ran into a simular situation on a modular layout, the USA three axles were derailing and the Aristo Craft were not. Track Gauge was checked all the way around the layout and on both side of the problem area which was not on a joint in the layout. This problem was not evident the last time the layout had been used, all diesels had gone through the area without problems. after three or four old timers with about 110 years of experice were ready to throw in the towel, including one who works for USA and another with connections to Aristo Craft one of the so called youngsters got out a torpedo level and checked the track again. It was level in the area were the derailment was occuring, but as he checked it he checked a couple of feet out in both directions and guess what? The laout was on uneven floor and it cause the module just before the problem area to be twisted causing the track just before the problem area to be tilted out, causing a low spot that was letting the lead wheel to pop up over the rail. The dip was less than `1/4 inch but it was enoungh to cause a problem low spot in the track. The diesels with the more ridgid motor blocks ingnored this situation because of they were rigid.

We used 9 and 10 foot dia track on the modules and I would not run any of my three axel diesels of either manufacture on the 9 foot, you could here the stress in the wheels as they went through the 9 foot dia curves.

I think to run these big diesels of either manufacture on anything less than 10 foot dia is punishing them.

Rule out nothing when it comes to Large Scale, this is not your fathers Lionel.

Ron

#52
Ronald Wenger said:
Bill,

I have to side with the old timers here. TOC is like myself and been doing this practically forever and a day, but just when you think you have seen eveything and done everything, Large Scale will make a liar out of you.

Yes the USA trucks have more than a few weak points but they do work for most folks. We ran into a simular situation on a modular layout, the USA three axles were derailing and the Aristo Craft were not. Track Gauge was checked all the way around the layout and on both side of the problem area which was not on a joint in the layout. This problem was not evident the last time the layout had been used, all diesels had gone through the area without problems. after three or four old timers with about 110 years of experice were ready to throw in the towel, including one who works for USA and another with connections to Aristo Craft one of the so called youngsters got out a torpedo level and checked the track again. It was level in the area were the derailment was occuring, but as he checked it he checked a couple of feet out in both directions and guess what? The laout was on uneven floor and it cause the module just before the problem area to be twisted causing the track just before the problem area to be tilted out, causing a low spot that was letting the lead wheel to pop up over the rail. The dip was less than `1/4 inch but it was enoungh to cause a problem low spot in the track. The diesels with the more ridgid motor blocks ingnored this situation because of they were rigid.

We used 9 and 10 foot dia track on the modules and I would not run any of my three axel diesels of either manufacture on the 9 foot, you could here the stress in the wheels as they went through the 9 foot dia curves.

I think to run these big diesels of either manufacture on anything less than 10 foot dia is punishing them.

Rule out nothing when it comes to Large Scale, this is not your fathers Lionel.

Ron


I agree every case is different but that’s not the reason for the post. I just wanted to know how many were experiencing problems with the six axle USA’s now I know that they are, question answered and of course the track is the first thing you check and it will be checked again. That goes for any scale it’s pretty much common sense. 10 foot Diameter is my minimum also for curves.
Thanks.