Large Scale Central

Turns

Operations Train Operations Software
#1

I posted this in HJ’s glitches thread, but it got lost, so here’s a thread dedicated to my issues with trying to set up a turn as 2 trains…

I’m still having problem making a mixed train “turn” work. My Eastbound train terminates (and Westbound originates) the end-of-track. In the Physical Layout I called this a siding but not a yard. I DID NOT mark it as a place for empties.

When I run the Eastbound turn, it drops an empty in this siding. The Westbound turn should take this car back to the interchange, but doesn’t. Even if I advance the date several times the car stays on the siding as an empty. I have no industries that call for an empty of this type so it should go to the interchange.

After advancing the date a few times the Westbound finally has something to do - pick up an empty tank that should go to the interchange. The Westbound turn serves the interchange but terminates at a passenger station one “town” beyond the interchange yard and two towns beyond the main yard. The empty tank doesn’t go to either yard, but stays on the train when it terminates at the station.

Looking at the car locations after the Westbound terminates, the tank is back at the industry where it originated, so obviously the program can’t leave the car at a place where there is no siding.

Do all trains need to terminate at a yard? Routing a train through a town that has a yard doesn’t seem to be good enough.

How do I get an empty that is supposed to go to an interchange to get loaded but is stuck someplace on the layout to go to the interchange?

#2

Jon, I think the issues you’re seeing (and the latest ones from HJ) are due to some bugs in the ‘find a car’ code I’m trying to untangle.

That said, no, all trains don’t need to terminate at a yard, and eventually the code will drop off cars onto the proper “drop empties here” sidings. Right now its hit or miss for that.

#3

Thanks Bob -

I’ll work around it for now and keep playing. I did notice you put the location edit into the Terminate Train window, so I can force the car to the proper place that way.

#4

Here’s a little bug that is kind of annoying…

Edit an existing industry… The name comes up in the edit box as New Industry, not the existing name.

#5

Jon, yeah that one is odd and it isn’t consistent either. Sometimes the name takes, other times it doesn’t. The same happens with sidings from time to time.

#6

Yea, that one is a chicken-and-egg problem I just about have solved. Still working on the get-an-empty-car code. That should fix most of the car pick-up issues we’re seeing.

#7

Thanks Bob,

.41 is installed. After playing with it a bit I think I’ll wait until you get the ‘get empty’ code sorted out before I report any more problems since the roll-backs in .41 cause mine to do some very odd stuff, Like pick up a car from the town and drop it at the only industry in the same town when the car is already there.

No need to respond. I know you’re working on it.

#8

UPDATE: Bob is playing with my database. He sent me some Build-a-Train logs that show the program is not finding the cars that should be in my yards. I may have caused the problem by restoring an old database on a new build.

Stay tuned :smiley:

#9

OhOh, just what I was planning. I guess that nixes that one. :frowning:

#10

I just heard back from Bob. Rolling back the db didn’t cause the problem, but he recommends against it as a change to the schema in a new version would cause the program to crash with an old DB.

With a little creativity you might be able to get around that. You would need the install set for each build, rather than getting the automatic update. Save the active db then put your roll-back db in place. Install upgrade and exit. Move your roll-back db back to storage, put the active db back. Install upgrade again. I think this would force the upgrading of both copies of the database.

#11

So - back to the issue of how to configure TrainOps to properly handle a turn.

With the V45 code and a freshly made database the program is actually operating like Bob intended.

Perhaps what I did is illogical, but I’m experimenting to learn how the program works, so bear with me. The weird part (to me anyway) is that if I start out with all cars off-layout and run the Westbound turn that does not originate in a yard, it wants to bring a bunch of off-layout cars to the end-of-track origination point for the turn. This point is not a yard or an interchange. I understand that in order to run a train it needs cars, so perhaps this makes some sense after all.

I’m just so confused :smiley:

#12

Jon,
According to one definition I have, “a turn is typically a freight that heads out from a yard to a specific point short of the next division point yard, sets out and/or picks up important cars for or from a major industry or crossing railroad, and the returns to its point origin, hence it’s name.”

If I have a route A-B-C-D, I envision that a turn would run from A to D, for instance, pickup stuff in D and return to A. Or deliver loads to D and return with the empties.

Is this what you envision when you talk about a turn?

Would you see any switching along the way? Or, would you only drop off and pickup at A and D?

#13
Bruce Chandler said:
Jon, According to one definition I have, "a turn is typically a freight that heads out from a yard to a specific point short of the next division point yard, sets out and/or picks up important cars for or from a major industry or crossing railroad, and the returns to its point origin, hence it's name."

If I have a route A-B-C-D, I envision that a turn would run from A to D, for instance, pickup stuff in D and return to A. Or deliver loads to D and return with the empties.

Is this what you envision when you talk about a turn?

Would you see any switching along the way? Or, would you only drop off and pickup at A and D?


Thanks for that clarification. I was missing the “returns to its point origin”. I was confusing a turn with a Eastbound Vs. a Westbound train. In my confused brain the Eastbound train ran the route A-B-C-D and terminated at D. The Westbound ran D-C-B-A, terminating at A. Problem is, with no yard, the WB didn’t pick up the cars left at EOT by the EB. Well, it didn’t in the earlier versions. I have not tested V45.

I have no yards at the Eastern terminus of the railroad, it is a true out-and-back. So, the thing that lead to this confusion, was the inability of TrainOps to create a train that does reTURN to the originating yard. If A is a yard, I’d think that the EB route would be A-B-C-D-A, but, the way TrainOps is written I can’t put A in twice. The WB would (in my head) then logically be routed A-D-B-C-A. I think I originally did want to do a turn, but ended up with two trains when I couldn’t put yard A on the route a second time.

With this new knowledge I need to re-think how my trains are routed, and perhaps the industries as well. Since I have no real sidings or buildings yet outdoors, I can be very flexible.

And to answer your other question… If A is a yard, then for train A-B-C-D-A I would be switching at B C and D.

One more tidbit that might help. The local short line runs two jobs in what used to be a turn by definition. Years past, NX-11 originated at a yard, switched industries in several towns, then returned to the yard. As business picked up, there was too much work for NX-11 and they would outlaw before finishing. The railroad broke up the turn into two jobs by adding NX-10. Basically NX-11 runs South bringing all cars south and switching industries on an E-W spur in the middle. NX-11 terminates somewhere on the main, wherever they happen to be. NX-10 starts the same train at the same point with a new crew. They switch the balance of the industries then run North back to the yard of origin.

I was trying to model my Eastbound - Westbound trains after the NX-11/NX-10 prototype. I was erroneously calling each of these two trains a turn, but I see now that they are not. So, going back to the origin of the thread, what I am really trying to do is figure out how to configure a train that will either run as a turn (by definition) -OR- run two trains with one taking the same cars as the first, simuilar to NX-11/NX-10 above.

Have I lost you yet?

I am now; Less Confused.

#14

Ah, NOW I see what youre trying to do…

Right now, cars will get dropped at the terminating point of the route, and not moved again until they are needed. The “drop empties here” flag is not honored under these circumstances. Once I get what I’m calling “car targeting” working, then these cars will get moved correctly.

#15

Fair enough.

A true turn would work for me as well, but I can’t figure out how to get the train to go back to the originating yard once the industries have been served. Would this be as simple (from a coding point of view) as allowing the same location to be added to a train twice? It does look like that would be difficult the way the Edit Train window is set up.

#16

Yea, I’m going to add a “[x] This train is a turn” option, and the train will go from A-B-C-D-A, and not switch C-B on the way back, just terminate there.

#17

Perfect :smiley:

#18

Bob,

Didn’t Jon have the turn pick up cars at “D” from the turn that starts at the other end? Don’t they need to be switched on the way back?

#19

HJ - That was while my mind was still a bit fuzzy.

With this new understanding I may still have an EB and a WB, but they both will be turns, and both originate indoors (A) where the storage tracks are. The difference in that one will go East loco first and work the trailing points from West to East then shove home from D back to A caboose first. The WB will go East shoving the caboose first to D (the EOT) then work what would have been facing points to the EB ad C and B as it works its way west back to A.

I think this is much more logical than what I was trying to do. Now I can cut down from 4 configured trains to 2. Run 1 turn as the mixed train and the other as just a way freight.

Now; just slightly confused :smiley:

#20

That might fix my problem too…Run a turn from the Ferry to rockwood…and a Mixed freight that only switches at the hotel…