Large Scale Central

Turnout Points

Track and Trestles
#1

I think I have the right name for these parts. I am thinking of the rails that connect to the frog and are the movable rails that are operated by the throw and select the line to be taken.

So I was day dreaming about switch building and it got me thinking about how the point rails are hinged for the lack of a better word. Now I believe that on the prototype they are fixed at the frog and the rail is flexed into place, correct? I can see in large scale with long prototypical switches this could be done this way. But what about on the tight R1 switches? Are they still flexed or are they hinged in some way? The point rails are very short and the diverging rail is already curved. Doesn’t seem like they would be able to flex. I am wondering how LGB, Aristo, B-Mann and the likes are doing this?

#2

Many times they are hinged. In HO scale, we used a rail joiner as the hinge. In large scale they just run a screw up through a tie, and that screw is the hinge pin for the point rail.

And yes, many times on the prototype they just simply bend the rail. A 20 some odd foot long rail will bend an inch or two.

#3

I’ve use a rail joiner in large scale, but I find that aluminum rail is flexible enough to bend even in frogs in the neighborhood of 3.5 or 4. I thought we had talked you out of using radius turnouts.

#4

David Maynard said:
Many times they are hinged. In HO scale, we used a rail joiner as the hinge. In large scale they just run a screw up through a tie, and that screw is the hinge pin for the point rail. And yes, many times on the prototype they just simply bend the rail. A 20 some odd foot long rail will bend an inch or two.

I used rail joiners in large scale. Drill a pit in the underneath of the two pieces of rail, loosen one end of the joiner, turn it all over and tap a couple of dimples into the pits so it all stays in one place. The rail joiners are Llagas code 250 nickel silver.

#5

Steve Featherkile said:

I’ve use a rail joiner in large scale, but I find that aluminum rail is flexible enough to bend even in frogs in the neighborhood of 3.5 or 4. I thought we had talked you out of using radius turnouts.

Lets just say this is for an inquiring mind. OUTSIDE you have most definitely talked me out of using a radius turnout; no worries there. However, INDOORS, well we will save that discussion for later. As of now we will just say I am inquisitive.

#6

Pete Thornton said:

David Maynard said:
Many times they are hinged. In HO scale, we used a rail joiner as the hinge. In large scale they just run a screw up through a tie, and that screw is the hinge pin for the point rail. And yes, many times on the prototype they just simply bend the rail. A 20 some odd foot long rail will bend an inch or two.

I used rail joiners in large scale. Drill a pit in the underneath of the two pieces of rail, loosen one end of the joiner, turn it all over and tap a couple of dimples into the pits so it all stays in one place. The rail joiners are Llagas code 250 nickel silver.

So just to clarify you are drilling a pit into both the fixed portion of the point rail and the pivoting portion. Then flip the whole thing over after putting the rail into the joiner and hammer corresponding dimples into each side of the joiner? Then by loosening the joiner on what I assume is the pivoting side this allows the rail to move and the dimples hold it in alignment? If I am understanding that correctly that sounds like a good method.

I think that would work great on a tight radius turnout with very short point rails. . . but who would do sucha thing? (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-innocent.gif)

#7

I used rail joiner on mine, when I built it. I notched both sides of the foot of the divergent rails, and modified 2 rail joiners so they were a normal joiner on one end, and just the flat bottom on the other. Then placing the joiner part on the divergent rail, I crimped it onto the rail (crimping where the notch was) with diagonal cutters. That secured the joiner on the rail. Then for the point rails, I cut them so as to have the threaded hole that Aristo put in the bottom of the rail at the hinge end. Then I drilled a hole into the flat tab I had on the joiner, and screwed the rail to the joiner. That gave me a working hinge, that also held the rail secure.

I am sorry that I don’t have a better picture to explain what I done.

Edit to edit the spell checkers correction of my atrocious spelling

#8

David Maynard said:

I notched both sides of the foot of the divergent rails, and modified 2 rail joiners so they were a normal joiner on one end, and just the flat bottom on the other. Then placing the joiner part on the divergent rail, I crimped it onto the rail (crimping where the notch was) with diagonal cutters.

I think I follow you but a point of clarification. When you are saying divergent rails I assume you are referring to the fixed rails that the points will be hinged too. When I think of divergent rails I am thinking the two rails heading off in a tangent direction only one of which has a point rail. But I think you are referring to the two rails that are in combination with the point rails. If so that makes sense how your doing it.

Yours is a combination of basically all that was mentioned above by having a screw to pivot on as well as using the rail joiner to keep it attached and inline with the fixed portion of the rail. That seems like a very solid hinge arraignment.

#9

Devon Sinsley said:

Steve Featherkile said:

I’ve use a rail joiner in large scale, but I find that aluminum rail is flexible enough to bend even in frogs in the neighborhood of 3.5 or 4. I thought we had talked you out of using radius turnouts.

Lets just say this is for an inquiring mind. OUTSIDE you have most definitely talked me out of using a radius turnout; no worries there. However, INDOORS, well we will save that discussion for later. As of now we will just say I am inquisitive.

Just remember that a radius turnout takes up more room that a numbered turnout.

#10

Steve,

I will say that this will be for my indoor micro. It is highly likely that this layout will be realized before my outdoor layout. I have abandon my original plan of doing this as an Fn2 on 32mm gauge track. I have decided to stick to 45mm gauge track so that I can use the trains I make for this layout on my outdoor layout and also to take to club functions. I have been talking with Vic on all things micro. And stock the tightest commercially available switch is an R1. I can make that work given my space but I have set a minimum diameter at 24" with the hope to keep it all at 30". Vic said if you want a tighter radius than R1 you will have to make it. Well I am thinking about at least attempting to make a turnout where the tangent is a 30" dia curve. The Idea is to make it like the LGB R1 switch only with the tangent being a tighter curve. It will be basically the same size as the LGB overall.

#11

I had often thought about making/modifing my turnouts and for for the “hinge” I envisioned a thin piece of brass or copper sheet simply soldered in the small indented area between the rail head and foot to the point rail and frog extension rail. The thin metal would flex much more easily than Code 332 or even 250 rail does and the piece would hold everything in alignment.

So we would still be “bending the iron,” but only a thin insert piece of it.

#12

Devon Sinsley said:

I think I follow you but a point of clarification. When you are saying divergent rails I assume you are referring to the fixed rails that the points will be hinged too.

Exactly

When I think of divergent rails I am thinking the two rails heading off in a tangent direction only one of which has a point rail. But I think you are referring to the two rails that are in combination with the point rails. If so that makes sense how your doing it.

The 2 outer rails are stock rails. One is curved and one is straight. I misnamed the rails coming from the frog to the points, the are actually called closure rails. My mistake.

Yours is a combination of basically all that was mentioned above by having a screw to pivot on as well as using the rail joiner to keep it attached and inline with the fixed portion of the rail. That seems like a very solid hinge arraignment.

It seams to have been real solid. When I took the switch out of service it was still functional. But, I had laid out the curve wrong and it was a bit too tight for some of my equipment. I had used it for a number of years, but occasionally it would derail my long coaches and my Pacific despised the thing, due to me making it a bit too tight.

#13

David,

Thanks for clarifying that. I was pretty sure I knew what you meant. For the tight corner I will be asking this turnout to make I don’t want to be bending any rail. It will need to be hinged and move easily. Your method seems stable and would move easy. Pete’s way I think would also do the same thing. But the screw through the bottom would be a very positive attachment.

#14

Todd Brody said:

I had often thought about making/modifing my turnouts and for for the “hinge” I envisioned a thin piece of brass or copper sheet simply soldered in the small indented area between the rail head and foot to the point rail and frog extension rail. The thin metal would flex much more easily than Code 332 or even 250 rail does and the piece would hold everything in alignment.

So we would still be “bending the iron,” but only a thin insert piece of it.

Todd,

My problem would be the strength of the joint. A heavy locomotive (EBT #12 weights 30# or more) coming through the curved rail would put considerable strain on the “thin” metal.

#15

Devon Sinsley said:

Pete Thornton said:

David Maynard said:
Many times they are hinged. In HO scale, we used a rail joiner as the hinge. In large scale they just run a screw up through a tie, and that screw is the hinge pin for the point rail. And yes, many times on the prototype they just simply bend the rail. A 20 some odd foot long rail will bend an inch or two.

I used rail joiners in large scale. Drill a pit in the underneath of the two pieces of rail, loosen one end of the joiner, turn it all over and tap a couple of dimples into the pits so it all stays in one place. The rail joiners are Llagas code 250 nickel silver.

So just to clarify you are drilling a pit into both the fixed portion of the point rail and the pivoting portion. Then flip the whole thing over after putting the rail into the joiner and hammer corresponding dimples into each side of the joiner? Then by loosening the joiner on what I assume is the pivoting side this allows the rail to move and the dimples hold it in alignment? If I am understanding that correctly that sounds like a good method.

I think that would work great on a tight radius turnout with very short point rails. . . but who would do sucha thing? (http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-innocent.gif)

It worked great for my railroads for 10 years. Never had a problem.

As Dave suggests, you could drill and tap a small hole and use screws instead - but dimples don’t get loose and fall out!

You can see the joiners on this early photo:

#16

Pete Thornton said:

Todd Brody said:

I had often thought about making/modifing my turnouts and for for the “hinge” I envisioned a thin piece of brass or copper sheet simply soldered in the small indented area between the rail head and foot to the point rail and frog extension rail. The thin metal would flex much more easily than Code 332 or even 250 rail does and the piece would hold everything in alignment.

So we would still be “bending the iron,” but only a thin insert piece of it.

Todd,

My problem would be the strength of the joint. A heavy locomotive (EBT #12 weights 30# or more) coming through the curved rail would put considerable strain on the “thin” metal.

The “thin” metal only serves as the hinge and does not bear the weight of the engine. The point rail still “sits” on something (tie or metal sheet) with the adjoining rail sitting on that same “something” to bear the weight and keep the rails at the same height. Also, the “thin” metal is soldered “well back” into the rail and the gap between the rails is very small.

#17

Screws don’t fall out when you red locktite the threads. I don’t know that the screw will ever come out, but I really don’t want it to.