Large Scale Central

Trusted color matched paint?

Problem Solving
#1

Any experience with model RR paint brands and their color accuracy to full-scale loco and freight car colors?

Specifically, the task is the refurbishing and exterior painting of a for real 1:1 scale 1947-type caboose – this was the first year for an SP 4 bay style. The original number is 1403 and is a C-40-4 Bay Window model. It was built in 1961 and rebuilt in 1975. The revised number is SP4049 and it was retired in 1989.

The color designation used by SP is “Box Car Red” or “Freight Car Red” - both apparently refer to the same color.

Only one paint was found - by Model Master - as “Boxcar Red”. At the hobby shop, after looking through at least a 100 bottles of RR model paint, only this one with the body color as titled was found. Question: Can Model Master be trusted? I did spray out a panel for evaluation and possible color matching in an automotive or commercial finish.

The body ends of the cabooses were painted later in the Daylight Orange color. I found that color in Polly Scale.

Thanks for any insight and experience.

Wendell

#2

I would think you might want to see if you can chip the paint, and try and see if you can match what was really there. Just because SP called out a certain colour, doesn’t meant that even they matched it. Railroads bought paint in batches, and each batch could be a bit different then the last, or the next, batch. So, if you really really want to be accurate, a paint chip off the car might be your best bet. If you want “close enough” then maybe matching a paint company’s interpretation of what was used would work.

#3

Is there no sign of the original paint? Often found under a fitting or under later layers of paint. While restoring stuff, I often have seen old paint in surprisingly good shape… If you cannot bring a sample to be matched, perhaps you can bring paint sample chips from a paint vendor to the caboose for comparison or mix up a little bit and paint a sample to be color matched at the paint shopshop.

#4

David Maynard said:

I would think you might want to see if you can chip the paint, and try and see if you can match what was really there.

Yep …

#5

Wendell Hanks said:

Any experience with model RR paint brands and their color accuracy to full-scale loco and freight car colors?

Specifically, the task is the refurbishing and exterior painting of a for real 1:1 scale 1947-type caboose – this was the first year for an SP 4 bay style. The original number is 1403 and is a C-40-4 Bay Window model. It was built in 1961 and rebuilt in 1975. The revised number is SP4049 and it was retired in 1989.

I want to note that if your painting that 1:1 scale car with model RR paint you better have damn deep pockets? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding the question though even after I read it more than twice?

#6

Rooster, yes you are. Wendell is saying that he wants the paint shop to match the model railroad paint, if its a match for the original paint.

My question, and I know I am going to be told something for asking, but my question is; If it was built in 61, rebuilt in 75, and retired in 89, then what version do you want to match the paint too? And, if you are a shade off, who would know? Paint fades and changes colour over the course of years, so a paint chip from, like Eric said, a somewhat protected area, would be the best sample to match. But if you were a bit lighter, or maybe a shade or two too brown, who will know for sure that isn’t what colour the paint discoloured to in service anyway?

#7

So far, a reasonable suggestion has been to encourage finding chips for a match. It may be the assessment of model paint accuracy is not be of the same concern for us in the large scale hobby compared to the HO enthusiasts , thus model paint choice criteria is not our focus.

Nonetheless, I appreciate the chip matching suggestions. Our task is looking for the car body sides color match that we have been told by SP historians were the same starting in 1947 and retained through the 1975 remodel. However, there were several repaints on the sides, and a case of massive spray can abuse. For these caboose sides the paint is so contaminated, that’s why we thought of the model paint world.

We are OK with the “Daylight Orange” for the body ends since there are confirming chips of paint that do come very very close to the model paint versions.

Meanwhile, thanks for your input!

NOTE: For the restoration of our pre-1947 caboose, I was able to find an area under the entrance overhang that I scraped and created chips and shards of original paint – at least bare metal was the outcome indicating original color. From there, my wife, a mosaic hobbiest, pieced chips together on gray art board so no gray showed through. I then took the 8" square it to a PPG lab whereby various optical registrations not only gave a color but a formula we could use. The outcome was a PPG single stage urethane enamel. Frankly, it was like being on a CSI movie set.

#8

The color used often depends on what the paint shop had on hand when the caboose was last painted. They might have had to mix different colors together, just to stretch the prescribed color enough to paint the car.

Then, the paint starts to change color, as soon as it hits the sun.

#9

Don’t think so Maynard

(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

#10

You haven’t talked to paint shop guys, have you, Rooster. I have. I am relaying what they told me.

#11

David Russell said:

Don’t think so Maynard

(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-undecided.gif)

What don’t you think Rooster?

#12

How about a SP Historical Society for a paint number and possible codes, then see what the color is for matching.

Had a friend wanting a paint color for an old, old canoe being restored; we backtracked on paint codes; original color was close to the Pullman green.

#13

Bob Kubasko-

Good suggestion using original paint codes – the trick is the change in materials and the transfer is best by someone who knows that Dupont Dulux translates, per a specific paint code mix, into Centari (or ?) and then into a urethane. Having the hobby of car restoration, I miss California’s OK to use acrylic enamels and lacquer. We are understandably limited per EPA codes.

Meanwhile, with your suggestion motivating, I contacted the California Railroad Museum Director of Restoration. I’ll have a conversation with him upcoming next week. It appears the accuracy of model paints is still an open topic.

Thanks,

Wendell

#14

Wendell Hanks said:

Bob Kubasko-

Good suggestion using original paint codes – the trick is the change in materials and the transfer is best by someone who knows that Dupont Dulux translates, per a specific paint code mix, into Centari (or ?) and then into a urethane. Having the hobby of car restoration, I miss California’s OK to use acrylic enamels and lacquer. We are understandably limited per EPA codes.

Meanwhile, with your suggestion motivating, I contacted the California Railroad Museum Director of Restoration. I’ll have a conversation with him upcoming next week. It appears the accuracy of model paints is still an open topic.

Thanks,

Wendell

Of course its still open. It depends on which shop did the painting and how long ago it was done that determines the shade. I get a laugh out of the 0 Gauge boys cycling on station over differences between Lionel and MTH shades for various color schemes. Take a look at real life, and you will see that there are many different shades within the same consist.

#15

I think contacting the SP historical society might be the best option. I know that the NP Historical society produced some color cards that detail in-depth the various amounts of each of the primary colors. That said, I’ve also heard of many shops mixing their own colors because that’s what they had on hand!

#16

Craig Townsend said:

I think contacting the SP historical society might be the best option. I know that the NP Historical society produced some color cards that detail in-depth the various amounts of each of the primary colors. That said, I’ve also heard of many shops mixing their own colors because that’s what they had on hand!

Thank you for backing me up on this point, mixing colors to get enough paint. This is why I think its nuts to obsess about “the right color.”. It depends. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)

#17

Sure seen a few UP locomotives that were different colors, in the same consist!

#18

Years ago, speaking with the official CPR Historian, when asked he stated clearly that “Box Car Red” varied from batch to batch no mater what was official ordered. It often depended on the paint company that had the contract. He also asked…“How many hours/days/months from the minute of applying the paint do you want the colour to resemble ?”.

Box car red was basically an iron oxide pigment based paint, much the same as the now common Red Oxide primer found in rattle cans, or used in the auto motive trade. Even today, depending on the brand, you will get different shades, which will start fading the minute it is applied, due to the UV from the sun. Most of the rattle can brands, or at least some of them also manufacture the red oxide primer in quarts, gallons, five gallon pails, and 45 gallon drums, with whatever carrier base that is legal where you are using it. Choose the rattle can from the manufacturer whose colour most pleases you, and try to get the gallons you need based on their colour offerings.

Red is a hard colour to match at any time. It seems to fade quite rapidly, although some of the newer types of synthetic carriers seem to help cut the fading a bit…from some peoples’ observations.

I hope this is of some help in your quest… Oh…yes…contact the oldest, of the existing paint companies in North America, and try asking them what THEIR official formula for “Box Car Red” (Or any other "Official paint colour for a specific railroad) is…they often only have it documented for 45 gallon batches, but their local agents can often figure out how to make up smaller quantities. I had it done not that many years ago, for a gallon of CPR Maroon paint, in an oil base.

Fred Mills