Well I have had the track down now for several months, looks great, a little over half of the installed track I weathered with paint and love the looks. Now for the problems. If you recall I used the PVC ladder method and secured the track to the ladder as required (LLagas Creek 250 aluminum) to hold the curves, this was installed in the spring /summer, now that the temps are dropping the track won’t slide in the ties on the weathered track . Second and unrelated problem is as the track contracted (non weathered) with temperature it has pulled the ladder towards the center of the loops, at each end and the track is leaning to the inside of the loop. As the train progresses through the loops it de-rails at the point where the track is flat and changes to the inside leaning. I’ll take some pictures asap but I am thinking of two solutions, one don’t run trains until next spring or shim the point of change to make the transition gradual then remove the shims in the spring when the roadbed straightens back up, if it does. Any Ideas?
John Neal said:
and secured the track to the ladder as required (LLagas Creek 250 aluminum) to hold the curves,
Who told you to do that!?! I free float mine. If you need to secure the track, I would do so minimally like using an occasional zip tie with screw tab (mounted head) to allow some movement (especially with Al track)-
(http://www.buyheatshrink.com/cableties/Pics/mounted-head-cable-tie.jpg)
-Brian
John,
Do you have any areas that will allow expansion and contraction? Curves are a constant source of derailments and miss-alignments, if not allowed to breath. Is your ladder track frame work still flat from side to side? If your vertical posts are deep enough it should be staying in place. If not, you may need more vertical posts. If you have the track attached to the ladder frame work every foot (just picking a measurement for example), try loosening, or taking out, every other attachment. You might also consider attaching the track to the ladder frame work at the beginning and end of the curve and allowing it to expand and contract over the ladder frame work on the curve.
I guess your paint may also be creating a bind as the rail tries to slide through the ties. Just work with it and try to understand what is causing the inability of the rail to expand and contract uniformally. There are even straight expansion sections of track for extreme conditions, but I feel you should be able to handle your expansion/contraction problem with allowing the track to adjust in the curves.
Brian gave you good advice, try some plastic wire ties for attachments, in some areas. You don’t have a failed system, it is just still being installed to handle all of your weather conditions. You are in the tweaking phase and need to allow for all temps, that it will got through in a yearly cycle.
I might have told John that when he visited. My track is screwed to the ladder; about ever 12-18 inches. I’m using AMS flex track. So far, no real complaints.
John,
I would loosen the track, for starters. Use a pan head screw smaller than the hole so the tie can move.
And don’t tighten it down. Leave 1/16" or so under the head. Never use flat or oval heads to screw track down.
Clean off the paint.
And any kind of roadbed, PVC or wood or plastic, will move a little, and sag between posts, if not properly supported.
Except for the one guy in our club who uses steel ladder method, all of our members, to the last one have removed their trex, wood, etc road beds due to one problem or another.
As it has been stated before here hundreds of times, if you can float your track, you are better off.
Bruce Chandler said:
I might have told John that when he visited. My track is screwed to the ladder; about ever 12-18 inches. I’m using AMS flex track. So far, no real complaints.
Ok so it’s your fault then Bruce! 
John, I love the ladder system and many variations of it have been built. However understanding it and the materials used are a different “element” as your still dealing with the “elements”(follow me?). Your in California(?) I’m in PA and have run on the ladder for several years but still understanding the “elements”. Basics are soooo important and the ladder system must follow the same outdoor principals that other types of subroadbed follow and mother nature has given us. Ideally(for me) an 8" trench or built up encapsuled bed with lots of 1/4" minus and 3/4 “Limestone” works very well but you add the ladder on top now you can level 16’ sections with 1 beer! My curves float on the ladder, straights hard soldered, rail floating in Aristo ties no screws attaching ties to rail. Screwed ties to ladder on straight long run’s but turns float on my RR. 1x4 tuf board bend
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/Shortybear/The%20Railroad/Buildingtheturns011.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/Shortybear/The%20Railroad/Addedsubballast004.jpg)
The same curve as it matures
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/Shortybear/The%20Railroad/October08001.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f72/Shortybear/The%20Railroad/July1308012.jpg)
Brian Donovan said:John Neal said:Who told you to do that!?!
and secured the track to the ladder as required (LLagas Creek 250 aluminum) to hold the curves,-Brian
“As required means” to hold the curve of the roadbed, the aluminum track is a bit flexible and will not hold the radius. I determined this on my own. thanks for the tie wrap idea.
Ric Golding said:
John,Do you have any areas that will allow expansion and contraction? Curves are a constant source of derailments and miss-alignments, if not allowed to breath. Is your ladder track frame work still flat from side to side? If your vertical posts are deep enough it should be staying in place. If not, you may need more vertical posts. If you have the track attached to the ladder frame work every foot (just picking a measurement for example), try loosening, or taking out, every other attachment. You might also consider attaching the track to the ladder frame work at the beginning and end of the curve and allowing it to expand and contract over the ladder frame work on the curve.
I guess your paint may also be creating a bind as the rail tries to slide through the ties. Just work with it and try to understand what is causing the inability of the rail to expand and contract uniformally. There are even straight expansion sections of track for extreme conditions, but I feel you should be able to handle your expansion/contraction problem with allowing the track to adjust in the curves.
Brian gave you good advice, try some plastic wire ties for attachments, in some areas. You don’t have a failed system, it is just still being installed to handle all of your weather conditions. You are in the tweaking phase and need to allow for all temps, that it will got through in a yearly cycle.
My vertical posts are at least 12" in the ground in most cases, as I am using standard slip joiners, (battery powered) I figured the track would slide in the ties and the slip joiners. The painted track is not on the loop ends that was an observation on the straight sections with other problems, but I have that under control. Thanks for the advise all is welcomed.
John Bouck said:
John, I would loosen the track, for starters. Use a pan head screw smaller than the hole so the tie can move. And don't tighten it down. Leave 1/16" or so under the head. Never use flat or oval heads to screw track down. Clean off the paint. And any kind of roadbed, PVC or wood or plastic, will move a little, and sag between posts, if not properly supported.Except for the one guy in our club who uses steel ladder method, all of our members, to the last one have removed their trex, wood, etc road beds due to one problem or another.
As it has been stated before here hundreds of times, if you can float your track, you are better off.
Thanks John, the track is elevated through the loop at this time, floating it is out of the question as the aluminum rail will not hold the radius, I am using pan head screws and will loosen a bit and see if that helps. Thanks everyone for the advice, it’s getting late, I’ll get back to the rest of the responses later. Thanks for the help the forum is great.
Aluminum rail may be a clue. If I’m not mistaken, it has a much higher expansion/contraction factor than brass, so it needs to be handled a bit differently. It’s also not nearly as smooth as brass, so it probably drags in the tie strips when trying to move.
Jon,
You are correct on all counts.
Aluminum, brass alloy, and stainless steel, from most movement to least, in a controlled environment.
John Bouck said:That would be why I have no problems with my Stainless track that is painted and firmly attached to wood and pvc-ladder roadbed, through curves :D My environment varies from extremes of -20F to +115 F although we rarely see either end of that spectrum.
Jon, You are correct on all counts. Aluminum, brass alloy, and stainless steel, from most movement to least, in a controlled environment.
Like I said many factors come into play…how much sun does it get is a huge factor, aluminium rail is a major factor but from my experience with brass rail you can secure the straights all ya’ want but the turns must float.
I have several expansion joints (store bought split jaw I believe) in my straight runs but they don’t seem to move,however my curves do and aluminium is probably gonna move more.
John Neal…I would try connecting the curved section with hard clamps (like hillman or splitjaw) instead of slip joints and make sure there are no screws securing the ties to the rail. Think basics!
David Russell said:I have given this some thought and don't think that will work as I don't have a problem with the track per say as right now the problem is the roadbed leaning inward, I am going to try and remove all the screws and see what happens as I don't think it is worth the time to try and reset the roadbed till I see what happens next spring and summer God willing, after all the input I think I can figure out a solution at least I have a lot to check, I'll con Mario to come and lend a hand with a printout of this thread in hand.
Like I said many factors come into play...how much sun does it get is a huge factor, aluminium rail is a major factor but from my experience with brass rail you can secure the straights all ya' want but the turns must float. I have several expansion joints (store bought split jaw I believe) in my straight runs but they don't seem to move,however my curves do and aluminium is probably gonna move more. John Neal....I would try connecting the curved section with hard clamps (like hillman or splitjaw) instead of slip joints and make sure there are no screws securing the ties to the rail. Think basics!
I won’t be able to do anything until next weekend as I have to go to Carson city in the am for the weekend and we are back on slow time and quite dark after work.
Thank you everyone for the advice and help, I’ll certainly post the solution to the problem if I get it solved. This is a great forum.
John, you using Llagas’ 1:20 ties and their aluminum rail? If nothing’s changed since 1996 when I started building my railroad up in the (almost) great white north, that stuff is notoriously a bugger to move on the ties on the best of days. I bought the unassembled track and had to string the ties two at a time, the fit was so tight. In fact, on the rail I had pre-weathered before stringing, the ties actually stripped the paint off the base of the rail there was that little room for play. I floated my track, so there was no sub-base for it to pull against.
Two thoughts. First, it could be that because the rail can’t slide on the ties, the rail isn’t opening up at the rail joints as it “should” to accommodate expansion/contraction. This might result in the track contracting the only way it knows how, by essentially tightening up the radius, pulling the ladder with it. Now I’d think that instead of doing that, the track would tend to straighten between the points at which it’s attached to the ladder. It’s a lot easier to move just the top 1/4" of ballast than it is to move all the ballast around the ladder.
My second thought is that the ladder itself is contracting and twisting. I’ve got that problem in some spots on my railroad. I’m just using 1/2" ID PVC pipe, not a full ladder, but I’ve found it likes to expand and contract, too. My solution in those spots is to loosen the screws that hold the track to the PVC so the track can rock side-to-side a bit, then tamp the ballast underneath to reset the level. I’ve got to stay on top of that through the season to maintain the level, but it’s just one more joy of being outdoors. (Note, I’m using AMS brass track now, which slides much easier on the rails.)
Later,
K
Kevin Strong said:
John, you using Llagas' 1:20 ties and their aluminum rail? If nothing's changed since 1996 when I started building my railroad up in the (almost) great white north, that stuff is notoriously a bugger to move on the ties on the best of days. I bought the unassembled track and had to string the ties two at a time, the fit was so tight. In fact, on the rail I had pre-weathered before stringing, the ties actually stripped the paint off the base of the rail there was that little room for play. I floated my track, so there was no sub-base for it to pull against.Two thoughts. First, it could be that because the rail can’t slide on the ties, the rail isn’t opening up at the rail joints as it “should” to accommodate expansion/contraction. This might result in the track contracting the only way it knows how, by essentially tightening up the radius, pulling the ladder with it. Now I’d think that instead of doing that, the track would tend to straighten between the points at which it’s attached to the ladder. It’s a lot easier to move just the top 1/4" of ballast than it is to move all the ballast around the ladder.
My second thought is that the ladder itself is contracting and twisting. I’ve got that problem in some spots on my railroad. I’m just using 1/2" ID PVC pipe, not a full ladder, but I’ve found it likes to expand and contract, too. My solution in those spots is to loosen the screws that hold the track to the PVC so the track can rock side-to-side a bit, then tamp the ballast underneath to reset the level. I’ve got to stay on top of that through the season to maintain the level, but it’s just one more joy of being outdoors. (Note, I’m using AMS brass track now, which slides much easier on the rails.)
Later,
K
Kevin, Yes LLagas 1:20 and I think you hit it right on the head I have weathered some and it is on the straight sections and does not slide well as in skins the paint off the rail, I had not weathered the large loop at one end and won’t from the results I have on the straights. What i have done is on the loop that is on the ground attached to PVC pipe as you have done is to remove the screws, lift the track and re-level in ballast, that has cured the problems on that end of the run, I have two problems left at the ladder loop. one is the front driver on my Heisler climbs the track and de-rails the front driver, like one section has lost its gauge and the other is where the track re-joins at the switch there is an S and I loose a car there on every pass, due to the laying over of the track I ran out of time Sunday afternoon but will get back to it next Sunday as I have to go out of town again. As others have mentioned above removing as many screws as I could solved a whole bunch of problems. Thanks everyone.
John
Well with all the help here and a few changes, I was able to run a Thanksgiving train with no problems, it seems I have 2 cars that have problems I haven’t solved yet so I removed them, then after removing a bunch of screws from the track and letting it float solved some of the problems, that left me with 2 one at a turnout and one in the middle of the end loop. I reversed the direction the train entered the loop and all was well. Now I can look at the 2 problem cars ( a new AMS Gondola and a Used AMS cattle car) the turnout is a Switchcrafters and the problem there is in the frog, I don’t know why but the frog has raised above the rest of the rails and created a bump. Again thanks for all the help.
John -
Are you having good luck with the wheels on other AMS cars? I’ve been replacing them with deeper flanges.
Jon Radder said:
John -Are you having good luck with the wheels on other AMS cars? I’ve been replacing them with deeper flanges.
Yes I have so far, it could be a gauge problem track or trucks, I’ll be looking into that.
Thanks JN
Jon Radder said:
John -Are you having good luck with the wheels on other AMS cars? I’ve been replacing them with deeper flanges.
Hmm…I might be interested in those old dilapidated shallow flange wheels…
