Large Scale Central

Track plan practical application questions

Track and Trestles
#1

OK,

So now that I have had some experience either running on, or watching others run on, layouts a few times I have a little better understanding of what I can do in my space and what I will enjoy in a layout. So I am rethinking my entire space and my givens and druthers have entirely changed. I am not going to go into all that but I do have some practical application questions. One major decision/realization is this is an old guy hobby. As an active member of my local club I want to be able to have people over to run and they can’t be dodging and climbing over a lot of track. It won’t be fun for them and it will be asking for stuff to get stepped on. So I am really thinking access and that is a challenge in my small space. I am also steering much more towards operations with only one option for continuous running.

#1 how far apart should parallel tracks be on straights? I am going to be running 1:20 NG equipment. I guess the real question is how much clearance between car sides? My hand built stuff will be about as wide or wider than anything commercial so if I build the track so my stuff can pass then so will most anything else. Whats a safe and realistic clearance?

#2 What about parallels on curves? Again NG equipment so not long. No need to bring your extra long car haulers or super long coaches. But I will be running a modified Accucraft J&S coach with two extra windows. This will be about as long as it will get. Lets assume I will have parallel curves where the tightest inside curve will be 8’ diameter. How far do I push out the outer curve to clear the overhangs? Whats a good rule of thumb?

#3 This one more or less I can probably figure on my own but what about clearances to hard structures like fences and the house? These would all be to the outside of any curve. I am thinking 4" to center-line of track would be plenty. I want to maximize my space and push stuff out as far as I can safely get away with. All access will be from inside the layout.

#4 What is a good overhead clearance for tunnels and grade separated crossings? I was thinking 12". Will most everyone’s stuff clear that? I know mine will. What’s the shortest recommended to get most standard stuff under? Again don’t bring your autoracks.

#5 Walkway width. Figuring a mostly elevated layout that has a base height of 0" and max track height of 24" what is the narrowest walkway width that can be comfortably negotiated. I don’t need shoulder room this isn’t a hallway, but is 30" reasonable? Does that allow feet, knees, and hips enough room to clear. Even us “larger” people aren’t that much larger than anyone else until you get to the belt. Again I need to maximize space but also get old gummers through the layout so they can have fun.

Any other logistical issues, or cardinal rules I just can’t break? At this point I am just wonder what reasonable parameters i need to have in place so that it will work and people will be able to move around. Just so we don’t go there, I am setting make curve diameter at 8’, it works and works well so lets not go there. Also max grade will be around the 2% mark with the right to increase it if need be but not by much so lets not go that direction. I have a small space guys so I am not wanting ideals I am wanting minimum practical here.

#2

Devon, Good questions and good to be thinking ahead. Regarding your questions:

1., 2. and 4. My research and checking other layouts, I found that many spaced their parallel tracks between 6-6 ½" on center, trying to maintain the same spacing on curves. My old ground level layout was a bit wider, about 8" or so, but the new elevated layout will be set at 6" in order to provide space for structures and landscaping (benchwork width is 32"). Some additional space (width) will be required for sidings at some locations, but overall I think 6" spacing will work for me. It will also allow easy reach to access any rolling stock as the need arises. Understanding your stated limited space, I would still nevertheless encourage you to use 10’ radius curves if you can. It looks better with longer cars and locomotives and reduces drag some to minimize amperage draw if you plan to use track power. But 8’ will work too. I have not had any tunnels on my layout(s), but have had overpasses and learned the hard way that 8" clearances are/were not always enough. I would encourage you to do as you have suggested and plan for 10-12" clearances and you shouldn’t have any problem.

  1. You might want to provide additional space between your tracks and hard structures in order provide yourself access, unless you will be able to reach those tracks from the other side. If you want to keep them close, I would suggest 6" minimum, especially near trees and/or shrubs that might require periodic pruning, etc…or wall painting.

  2. In my past life as a park designer, I tried to maintain a minimum of 30" track widths, and wider if possible. People wobble some when they walk and a little wider walk is safer if you have the room. Regarding grades. My old layout has/had grades exceeding 4-5% in some locations, including curves. Not good. Amperage jumped and with long consists I experience slipping like others have learned. If you can maintain a maximum of about 2% on straights and none to little on curves you should do fine. My elevated layout will not have grades in excess of 1% by design in order to minimize those problems. One more suggestion, if your railroad system will be a loop or loops and wider than an arms length, I would urge you to consider a bridge pass through (lift up bridge) if you have elevated segments in order to allow you access to the center of the layout for maintenance, etc. Split-jaw has available rail camps that allow for lifting up bridge segment for access. Something I observed others struggle with.

Enough advice. Get busy building and have fun! Keep us posted!

#3

distance on straights:

i take my two widest pieces of rolling stock, set them on the paralell track, push them sideways against each other. if then there are still 10mm of space left, i nail the track down. in my case that means 140mm from center to center. at stations i give at least 20mm more distance. (room for lampposts, luggage and passengers) so it is 160mm or more.

for curves, i fixed markers to the edges and to the middle of long rolling stock. when the outer markings of the inner loop did not overlap the inner markings of the outer loop, i nailed the track down. (never measured that, but center/center distance is an estimated 180 to 200mm)

walkways:

on my layout i made 800 to 900mm/2’10" to 3’ wide acesses.

as nearly everywhere there is laying junk buildingmaterial at the sides, i can deduct, that about 600mm/two ft. at footlevel is enough. (at special viewpoints you need a foot more of space.)

on my last layout i had backstage acesses. 400mm/16" was enough… below belt-hight. above it should be a little more. (depends on your appetite)

edit:

height:

depending on the height of my rolling stock, my tunnels and bridges have a free height (from bottom of sleepers) of 230 to 240mm/9" to 9.5". that leaves about one thumb-widtht of room above the smokestacks.

#4

Thanks Ric,

most of what you state can be done with ease accept the curves. I just don’t have the room, just like the prototype we have to live with what we have and this has to fit between the house and the fence. It will be a limitation I have to live with when making my purchases or building my own stuff. When it comes to visitors. . . well don’t bring your big boy; I just was at a club member’s house that is doing 8s and everyone one made it just fine. For my theme the tight curves are right at home and are probably pretty close to realistic.

I can easily separate the tracks and push away from the fence and the house to 6" that’s not a problem. Since the entire layout will be accessible from the interior I can keep the reach down pretty easy. Thats another thing in pre planning is being able to reach all turnout throws easy and most all track with in 2 foot reach or so. There might be a few straight sections that won’t be that easily reached but I will make sure you can get to them if you have to.

Thanks for the advice.

#5

Thanks Korm. . .even if I did have to do some math to convert to stupid American. You seem to be about in line with what Ric said for track spacing.

PS changed the logo with correct spelling.

#6

(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)the mountains look much better now…

#7

Korm Kormsen said:

(http://www.largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-laughing.gif)the mountains look much better now…

(http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)Stan is cutting me a great deal to reprint them. 6 small ones for on the sides of my indoor locos and two larger ones for signs. I am glad I only applied one to a sign. Would have been very upset had I applied them to a loco. Stan is a good guy that’s for sure. What a dumb mistake on my part. I could have left it and made the logo look hand painted like some redneck hillbilly painted it on with a brush.

#8

Devon, your biggest challenge is not going to be clearance for your rolling stock, but clearance for feet, both for maintenance, and for rerailing. I would suggest making the distance between the tracks and between the track and the fence at least twice the width of your shoe. Sure as shooting, my stuff is going to derail in the most difficult spot to get to, and my size twelves need some room to operate. When you want to fuss with ballast, or pull that weed that’s in that difficult to get to place, your knees will thank me for the extra space. Ask me how I know this.

12 inches from rail head to first contact with the tunnel should be plenty.

My walkways are 24 inches, so your plan for 30 inches is fine. Remember, these are not layouts in the basement, where this sort of measurement is critical.

Clearance for buildings is another matter. I put mine at prototypical distance, and hope that people step around them.

My steepest grade is just over 2.5%. My Geep 9 (sorry, Greg, but its a 9, not a 7) will pull 19 oil cans plus a caboose up it, its at least 20 feet long, so not all 19 cars are on the grade at once, but all are on the grade and two curves. The Geep 9 did not even break a sweat. Keep your grade in that ball park, and you should be fine. The Lionel Atlantic has pulled 8 cars, plus caboose without slipping, all on the grade, for comparison.

#9

Steve,

What are Joe’s grades? His seems steeper than yours. The plan I am playing with now is at its worst 2.1% on a straight that is about 20 feet long and I do have an 11 foot diameter curve at 1%. All other curves are flat and anywhere there is switching taking place is flat. Its mainline is a double reversing loop layout ( a reversing loop at each end) and then it branches off to an elaborate WYE/siding arraignment for operation. I plan on adding some other industry sidings and a small yard for operational interest. When i get closer to having a more concrete idea I will throw it our for comments.

As to reach. With the layout being designed how it is, where you will enter into the center of the layout to operate, I am hoping that almost all of it will be reachable without having to climb on it. Most all of the track will be close to you and buildings set behind it. In areas that you will have to climb on it I will use the Steve method of strategically placing things so you can get up on it and work. But most of it, the track, should be right there.

#10

I don’t know that Joe has ever measured his grades. I’ll have to ask.

#11

Devon Sinsley said:

#1 how far apart should parallel tracks be on straights? I am going to be running 1:20 NG equipment.

The EBT used 12’ centers on their parallel tracks, which is pretty close to 7". That’s what I use on mine, and there’s ample space between tracks for passing trains.

#2 What about parallels on curves?

With 8’ diameter (4’ radius) curves, I’d broaden that to 8" just to be safe. The smaller the equipment, the less overhang, but you still don’t want stuff going “bump”

#3 what about clearances to hard structures like fences and the house? These would all be to the outside of any curve. I am thinking 4" to center-line of track would be plenty.

From a physical “guaranteed not to hit it” standpoint, 4" is a good figure. Having said that, the one thing I’d do differently on my railroad would be to increase the distance between the fence and the track to allow for more plantings, landscaping, etc. There, I’d go 8" minimum, maybe even increase it to 12" to give you ample room for landscaping.

#4 What is a good overhead clearance for tunnels and grade separated crossings? I was thinking 12". Will most everyone’s stuff clear that? I know mine will. What’s the shortest recommended to get most standard stuff under? Again don’t bring your autoracks.

The ceiling on my tunnel is 10" from the railhead. That’s a bit over a scale 16’, which should be more than ample for narrow gauge equipment, which seldom exceeded 14’ even for really tall stuff.

#5 Walkway width. Figuring a mostly elevated layout that has a base height of 0" and max track height of 24" what is the narrowest walkway width that can be comfortably negotiated. I don’t need shoulder room this isn’t a hallway, but is 30" reasonable? Does that allow feet, knees, and hips enough room to clear. Even us “larger” people aren’t that much larger than anyone else until you get to the belt. Again I need to maximize space but also get old gummers through the layout so they can have fun.

The paths on my dad’s railroad are around 18 - 24" wide, which seems to be plenty for walking around and not tripping over things.

Any other logistical issues, or cardinal rules I just can’t break? At this point I am just wonder what reasonable parameters i need to have in place so that it will work and people will be able to move around. Just so we don’t go there, I am setting make curve diameter at 8’, it works and works well so lets not go there. Also max grade will be around the 2% mark with the right to increase it if need be but not by much so lets not go that direction. I have a small space guys so I am not wanting ideals I am wanting minimum practical here.

Can’t think of anything without seeing a sketch of the space or what features you want to include for things like prototypical operation, passing two trains, etc. Are you planning on keeping the rolling stock out by the railroad? I think the best feature I added to my railroad was a storage shed that I could just back the cars into.

Later,

K

#12

Devon, Joe’s grades run to 3%, perhaps more.

#13

I am still working on the sketch guys. I should have it done enough to share maybe tomorrow. I am sure once you se it some of my thinking will be a bit more intuitive.

With regard to the fence and the house clearance I really need to know the minimum. Its not that I am stubborn its that I have a very narrow area to work with; the whole area is about 12 feet wide. So while some are saying make curves the wider the better and then others are saying stay 6 to 8 inches away from the fence and house. Well something has to give. I either have to have smaller diameter curves to get the clearance from the fence and house or push it up against the house and the fence to get the widest curves. For some of the features I want its best if they are shoved out to give me more interior to play with. Like I said it will probably make more sense when I can put up a picture.

Steve, if Joe’s are 3% and greater and he has curves on some of those grades then I will be golden with what I have planned. We ran all sorts of stuff just fine at his place.

Edit to say that I can fudge the track inward away from the house and fence once the curves are completed so where I can I will push it in but knowing 4" won’t go bump then that is the hard number I can use and then fudge it in where I can to give me a bit more. Its like curves I am planning 8’ diameter but when I am out there and I can physically see what I have I will fudge them bigger.

You guys are giving the advice I need and that is do at least X but if you can fudge it to Y. Thats what I need to know. I have come to realize what I put on paper and what happens in reality will be different.

#14

Devon Sinsley said:

So while some are saying make curves the wider the better and then others are saying stay 6 to 8 inches away from the fence and house. Well something has to give. I either have to have smaller diameter curves to get the clearance from the fence and house or push it up against the house and the fence to get the widest curves.

Devon, I would do BOTH. The widest curves with room to step and clearance. I wish I had asked the type of questions you are asking before I put my track way too close to the house. I can walk there, but just barely and I put track on the inside, because that’s where my industries are. Now, admittedly I am not limited to 12 feet of width, but my focus is on operations and I typically run short trains and locomotives that are not giant so curves are not a big issue.

#15

I think with all of what your saying I have a pretty good idea on what I need to do and why I would need to do it. I have resigned myself to the idea that there will be areas where there will be no landscaping or buildings. These will be areas that are necessarily close to either the house of fence that also need to provide walkway clearance. In these places it will basically be the ladder. But where I can I will suck it in as far as I can in order to make room for stuff.

And as to the compromise on curve diameter I too will run small equipment and short trains. People in my club on the occasions they visit will just have to do the same. We just ran at a members house with tight curves (8’) and 3% grades and we had 5 or 6 people running trains without issue. One even pulled a rather long train double headed with k27s. So after seeing that I am convinced 8’ diameter is not an issue. Maybe not ideal but I don’t have an ideal space. I have what I have. I need to make the most of it.

#16

I helped to lay out a real passing siding on the WW&F railway and we spaced adjacent straight tracks so that a person could safely stand between two trains… Ended up at about 10 feet between track centers… Our cars are about 6 1/2 feet wide. Real tracks are not too close together. I would give an inch or two between passing wide cars if you can.

I would allow foot access inside the track next to your building or fence and snuggle the track pretty close to the fence or building… Leave a couple inches of clearance so you can get your fingers in to retail stuff.

#17

OK here is the basic track plan I am thinking about and the kindergarten finger painting is giving my rough thoughts on the different levels.

Just to give the lay of the land. The house would be on top and extends from the upper right corner to about where the left hand loop apex is. The entire right side and bottom are fence. On the left and upper left corner are open currently to the back yard; however, they will be fenced to prevent two and four legged critters from entering unwanted. The upper left corner between the small yard and the loop will be where you enter through a gate at the top.

Now a tour of the layout. The yard at the extreme left will be mainly for staging trains. In seeing people at club meets, whether intentional or not, everyone has a staging area, and it is a good idea. Keeps everyone out of the main layout while others are running. During operation sessions it will make a great terminal yard. Coming out of the staging yard you encounter a Wye, why a Wye you ask, because I want one that’s Wye or er why. And you need to turn trains somewhere and the prototype had three Wyes on it line for turning. And if that wasn’t enough it will make for operational interest. Coming out of the Wye you encounter the first loop. On the right side of that loop where I inserted a piece of straight track to eliminate and S curve I will install a hinged lifting bridge to access the center of the loop. This will be a battery layout so no conductivity issues to worry about.

The bottom of the loop where I pushed out the track away from the fence will be the station. track may get bumped even more. Basically I want that straight to be as long as the station. The rest of the loop will be town. most likely a siding or two to serve something and have a purpose in operations. Then you have the two sweeping curves making your way to the right and top. Just scenery here. Across the top is the house. can’t be too wide through here because of that loop and a walk. So just some more scenery. then coming into the loop at the left there will be a mining area there with a siding, likely a double siding, to serve the stamp mill. All track except the staging area is at least 6 inches from center of track to a hard structure. Staging area will likely be the same of maybe a bit farther to allow hands and fingers in there for placing cars. The only real passing siding is at the Wye and it is a 6" separation. The two curves are separated by 8". Most curves are 8’ diameter. the far right one is 11’ with whatever the inner one is to make the separation. All turnouts are #6. Max grade is 2% and yes most of it is on curves we will have to live with it. Its the only way to get grade separation because I won’t feel right without at least one grade separated crossing.

Now lets talk about my finger painting. The lowest portion of the track is the left hand loop. Track height here is 14". It is 14" because I want the mass majority of the layout to be elevated even if only a little. One I think it looks nice plus the less old gummers have to bend the over the better. A good safe step height is 7" so two steps is 14". In two places I will have to get people over the tracks and this will be done with a 14"high landscaping tier. At the tip of the Wye I want a tunnel or bridge work for a grade separated crossing. So the upper section is 26" high. For switching I wanted the staging yard and Wye flat so all of it is 26", even including most of the middle loop.

The green is base ground height, lets call that zero. The colored areas represent a very basic tiered ground height that corresponds to track height. It is mainly landscaping and not to be walked on except for maintenance and the odd derailment. Everything is meant to be accessible from a green area except a small portion of the yellow at the lower left where the landscaping tier will have to serve as a pathway over the track and again at the top of the Wye for the same reason. Also to hit the throw on the left side of the Wye. The yellow is 14" the red is 26" and the blue is transitional.

OK thoughts. Keep in mind the limitations and desires. Limited space, emphasis on operations with one option for continuous running. Landscaping to fit the track plan and not a track plan to fit landscaping. 1:20.3 narrow gauge mining RR theme. Small equipment. Main use is for me and a few operators with the purpose of operations, with the option of a few club members at a time leisurely playing on it. I might mention this is not a RR in a garden, it is an outdoor train layout. Plants will be used but will not even be secondary more like third or fourth concern. Ladder system, with rock being used to build up the beds. In areas where I have narrow paths I might resort to cribbing.

#18

Devon, I think that Joe’s 3% grades were on the down hill portion of the inside loop near the water feature. Don’t get carried away.

#19

I will also add that where the path will cross over tracks in two spots I plan to Use Bob Hyman’s method of embedding the track more or less in concrete. I am not sure exactly how this will be done yet but I like that he made the rails flush with the top of the walkway so that they can’t be bent when stepped on. i might pour say a 12" wide concrete strip and put the track in that or I may make a much larger concrete surface that also includes the steps. We are a long ways from that, but the steps will need to be solid so old timers don’t fall down on unsteady ground It may not even be concrete it may be cedar or redwood and make the tracks have regular bridge decking. But you get the idea. they will be meant to be walked on safely with no tripping hazard or damage to the track.

#20

Steve Featherkile said:

Devon, I think that Joe’s 3% grades were on the down hill portion of the inside loop near the water feature. Don’t get carried away.

I am sticking to a 2% max grade and the way it worked out The above layout is close but I made an additional tweak that puts one section of the loop at 1.6% and the other section 2% so if it is an issue I can run trains down the 2% and up the 1.6%. The far left of Joe’s layout away from the house that curve has to be 2% or more I would think. Its not as steep as the back side of the mountain but where your Pacific was having trouble before he smoothed it must be 2% at least.