Large Scale Central

Time for some operating rules?

Operations
#1

Work has been hectic and the spring weather wet and cold. Despite this I have finally got enough done to have a fully operating point-to-point with train turning capability at both ends…

Indoors my balloon track is fully operational and all the benchwork done. Yards are yet to be built except for a few sidings that aren’t screwed together yet. Outdoors the Wye that has been in place since last fall has finally been wired with three blocks and a reverse section in one tail which is also the end of the main line.

I don’t yet have any industries or sidings. Until some are added, operations will be limited to passenger excursions and photo freights, a kind of out and back operation with trains waiting in the Wye for the main to clear for the return trip - EBT style.

Running a few test trains yesterday, I got to thinking about rules. Should the Wye and Balloon always be operated in the same direction? Should switches have a Normal position that they must be lined to after use?

If running just one train and one operator, it’s quite convenient to run the balloon and Wye in the opposite direction as the last run - you can just leave all the switches lined the way you exited, then the next trip enters from the other direction. I can see where this would get messy fast with multiple trains, or multiple operators - thus I’m thinking there should be rules.

At the Wye end, it’s easy to say that switches should always be left lined for the main. That leaves one switch at the other tail with no clear rule. Should it be lined so that a train backing in from the main does not need to throw the switch before entering the tail (and stopping to reverse)? That seems to make sense to me, but requires a second stop after the train passes through the switch while exiting. But stopping to do stuff is good, Yes???

OK - So let’s talk about Indoors. Direction seems simple. The clockwise route around the balloon give the longest track before the reverse section to allow the train to clear all switches before stopping. Since operation from indoors to outdoors is usually done looking through a window, it is logical that the balloon switch should be left lined to the return route. This requires a departing train to stop as soon as the entire train is on the main. Is that weird, or normal? Either a departing train or an arriving train is going to have to stop at that switch. I think the rule should favor arriving trains for my convenience.

I hope this makes some sense. It’s late and my brain is about toast from work. If not, please excuse the ramblings of a mad man :smiley:

JR

#2

Jon,

Outside, is the leg of the wye that is in the trench at the end of the mainline? Thinking like the EBT trackage, the trackage goes past the wye on the mainline to Mt. Union, so track would always be aligned for mainline trackage, even though it is no longer used. So what if you modeled a collapse of a tunnel at the end of the trench? What if the story line goes tha that the trackage once went through and is now stopped at the wye because of that collapse of the old tunnel? Trackage use to go further, but has now been stopped (permanently or temprarily) because of that tunnel collapse. If I have that right, then your turnout alignment would reflect EBT with an idea of the main going further.

Inside, I think what makes it easier should be the ruling factor. Just my thoughts.

#3

YES…there should be “Operating Rules”

It is one of the projects for this year, on the IPP&W. One important rule is to properly identify your train in comunication with the dispatcher.
And of course there are many more; depending on the needs of your pike.

This is a great topic for this forum “Standard Operating Rules”

We could start with a prototype pikes’ little book on the subject…I have several.

#4

Fred,

I agree. One of the first rules I think that needs established is direction.

In other words is the railroad an East - West Railroad or a North - South Railroad?

The KVRwy is an East - West Railroad. And following traditional prototype railroading, Eastbound traffic has right of way over Westbound traffic, of the same classification. And a scheduled train going the same direction has right of way over an unscheduled train going the same direction.

So on a simple branchline railroad where most traffic is very simply maybe only one or two scheduled trains a day, anything like a tourism train or a small time unit coal drag is run as an extra and is lower on the hierarchy scheule of who gets priority.

These are just some ways I look at it and trying to promote the conversation of scheduling rules.

Great conversations.

#5

I have a whole list of operating rules written up, when you have a small railroad like mine, everything you can do to make it take longer. It was something they called “Railroad Dyanamics” in an old article I read years ago that got me started. There are both little things and major items on the list, someday I’ll go through them all and organize them into a rulebook. Some of the ones I can recall right off the top of my head, and not in any particular order:

  • The Mainline runs North to South, Port Lavender is Northern Terminus and Cassville is South

  • A train consists of a locomotive and appropriate tail car.

  • All trains will have their locomotives in their diretion of mainline travel and all trains will have an appropriate tailcar

  • Trains must come to a complete stop 5 (scale feet) from any car that could be occupied by passengers.

  • All switches must be left in the direction of mainline travel

  • All trains must stop for clearance before entering yard limits

  • Cars quipped with Link and Pin couplers must be moved in the rear of a train

  • Cars equipped with airbrakes will be moved closest to the locomotive

And the list goes on…

I’ve also given thought to other aspects of railroading, such as how long does it take to fill a locomotive tender? How long does it take to pump up the air on a consist? How many hoppers can a tipple load in a given time period?

Man this stuff can get complicated fast!

#6

Dont forget to drop a flagman to protect facing and trailing point sidings… thats one of my favorites. I need to make up a couple figures with track-sized platforms to stand on.

#7

Well, the last thing I want is to make so many rules it’s too complicate to be fun.

But it looks like I’m on the right track (pun intended) wanting to establish some operating rules.

Ric - GREAT IDEA about the collapsed tunnel. I think I’ll use that. Yes, the track that runs into the trench would be considered the main. In the future, the northern leg of the Wye will be extended to be a new branch line terminating in an outdoor yard, but that is years off. Too much other work to do first - and a large obstacle to conquer - stone entry steps.

Direction huh? I’ll have to think about that. The end of the main is on the south-east corner of my lot. Much of the main runs east to west, but there are two 90 degree turns. One at WALL where the main turns north-south, then another at ES-CAP-E Canyon where it turns East-West again. It’s really just a matter of choice as there is no clear-cut answer. The two terminals are separated by both directions and there is about an equal amount of track in each. If I consider the future destination, then North-South is what you end up with. Sorry for the stream of consciousness

In any case, its an easy rule to make that outbound trains (toward the Wye) take precedence. This forces trains to wait on the Wye for the main to clear before returning.

As for switches, it sounds like I’ve chosen what is the main, so I’ll go with must align to main. The switch at WALK (North tail of Wye) will become part of the new main when expansion happens, so it will be ruled to align the north tail with the west leg.

Indoors, I like Bart’s rule All trains must stop for clearance before entering yard limits. Since a stop is already being made, its no extra time to change the switch for the arriving train.

And yes Bart - those with short ones are always looking for ways to make it longer :open_mouth:

Bob - I have one grade crossing which is Stop & Protect. It’s a short walk for the flagman from the crossing to the next switch that must be thrown, so only one stop is needed.

JR
JR

#8
Jon Radder said:
And yes Bart - those with short ones are always looking for ways to make it longer :O

JR


Gues it just goes to prove I AIN’T compensating with my large trains! heheheheh

#9

My idea for a flagman is that if you’re switching a siding, you’re SUPPOSED to drop a flagman a safe distance from the siding, do your switching, and then go back and get him. I’m pondering throwing that into my ops. I may try it out on the Invasion this year. :slight_smile:

Oh, and dont forget that cars you pick up have to have their air hoses attached, and the train filled with air. That takes time, too.

#10

So Bob, You said - “Oh, and dont forget that cars you pick up have to have their air hoses attached, and the train filled with air. That takes time, too.”

Would a switch engine just use its own brakes for yard switching? And were/are the brakes “tied down” on all or some of the railcars? Anyone know the process of this?

#11

Ohh ya just opened a can o worms…even in yard switching the airlines have to be charged with airbrakes…it just doesn;t take as much time…You CAN manually release brakes, but this is frowned upon…depeneding on the length of train and how steep a grade you have some brakeswould be set when going down hill…usually enough so that the locomotive still has to put forth a little bit of effort to keep the train moving, thus keeping the train under control on the downgrade…

#12

Oy, Fred … how about Rule G??? :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

Matthew (OV)

#13

Good discussion. Let’s keep it going.

Yesterday while running an errand at work I took a short (20 mile) side trip to stop by the partially restored New Haven RR station at Thomaston, CT, Home of the famous Seth Thomas clock works, just 10 miles north of the home of the Waterbury Clock Works which became Timex. Those old New Englanders loved to make clocks.

Sorry for the diversion - Oh yes OPERATING RULES. The museum and station were closed, but I could walk around outside and peer through the windows. Inside was a lighted sign, probably from the early 50’s…

“OBEY RULE 26 - Blue Flag By Day / Blue Light by Night” With some cute tag line I can’t remember. Recalling Ric’s use of the Aristo hex drivers as Blue Flags it’s quite easy to implement a Blue Flag rule on our railroads.

Referring to earlier discussions - I’ve decided my Railroad is North-South. In the old rulebooks, which direction would take precedence on a single track main? Was this something that was pretty much standard across the country, or did each road make it’s own rule?

So far I’ve settled on a few basics. The letters are for discussion. I’ll use Rule Numbers when I put them on paper…

A - All Mainline switches to be lined to the Main

B - Switch at WALK to be lined to Diverging Route (branch line)

C - Switch at EAST ES-CAP-E to be lined to the Straight Route (departure yard )

D - Southbound (out) trains have precedence over Northbound (back) trains.

Rule A and B demand no less than 6 and perhaps 7 stops to traverse the Wye.

Rule C demands that returning trains stop twice. Once before entering the yards, then again after passing the switch.

Rule D demands that when multiple trains are running, Northbound trains must hold on the Wye for the main to clear.

Thusly - Every out-and-back excursion train will make a minimum of 8 stops for switches. When multiple trains are running, up to 3 trains will hold on th Wye. Current line capacity is 4 tack powered trains at once. One additional train can be accommodated with Battery/RC. The Wye offers space for 5 trains clear of the returning mainline, 4 of which are block power switched.

OK Enough of this. The weatherman predicted cloudy and rainy, and it’s sunny and breezy. I’m off to clear the tracks and practice some of this :smiley:

JR

#14
Ric Golding said:
So Bob, You said - "Oh, and dont forget that cars you pick up have to have their air hoses attached, and the train filled with air. That takes time, too."

Would a switch engine just use its own brakes for yard switching? And were/are the brakes “tied down” on all or some of the railcars? Anyone know the process of this?


How this is done in practice depends a lot on the individual road, and how closely they enforce the rules. I have occasion to watch the local job (small short line) switch out several industries separated by about 5 miles. The number of cars exchanged ranges from 1 to 6. They take very little time waiting for lines to charge when pulling empties, in fact it’s not unusual to hear the brakes dragging as the car begins to move. They also don’t do a brake check before leaving every stop either. Once they have put together a train that will travel for more than a few miles, they will stop, walk the train and do a brake check.

Their longest local stop is exchanging empty high-side gondolas for full ones from a trailing point siding. Usually 5 at a time. This stop takes no more than 15 minutes including dropping all cars except the fresh empties, pulling the loads, dropping the empties and putting the train back together. They do it in 9 moves or less too!

JR

#15

Which raises the interesting question , do we do it realistically , i.e.,break all the safety rules , or do it properly by the book .
I am minded of the pointless operational exercises in the military where , for example , the umpire declares you dead , then the boss says ,well , ignore that , get this aircraft ready .
J.a.t.
Mike

#16

Safety? Not in the Asylum Valley, you don’t!

#17

Jon,

I believe the common rule is eastbound over westbound and northbound over southbound. Going back a long ways when most commerce was centered around the Northeast, the desire was to get items from the vast wasteland to the cities and to get goods from the farmland to the people. Inports coming from the southern ports was handled quicker than stuff being shipped out.

If this causes you a conflict, you could have a rule that trains leaving yard limits (basement) must stay clear of mainline operations. Or use the infamous MRMR (my railroad, my rules). That always works.

Bob,

Fred has used the snap on end of track pieces for derailers, hooked to the edge of the roadbed with a small chain. That is what gave me the idea of the blue flag (Aristo screw driver) as a flagman or brakeman, signal. I did notice you can’t drive one through that wood. I can see it now a cordless drill with proper drill bit size will be a required piece of train crew equipment. Maybe you could make a brakeman that snapped onto the rail.

#18
Ric Golding said:
Jon,

I believe the common rule is eastbound over westbound and northbound over southbound.

If this causes you a conflict, you could have a rule that trains leaving yard limits (basement) must stay clear of mainline operations. Or use the infamous MRMR (my railroad, my rules). That always works.


Well then, I’ll just change it to East-West. Like I said earlier, it’s about 6 to 1, 1/2 a dozen to the other. That makes Deep Cut the East End and the basement the West end, so everything is cool!

Ric Golding said:
[i][/i]I did notice you can't drive one through that wood. I can see it now a cordless drill with proper drill bit size will be a required piece of train crew equipment.
I've already drilled some holes through the ties and wood roadbed in appropriate places in the basement. Blue Flags protect the chasm when lift bridges are up. Outdoors they stick into the ballast quite nicely and fit into a coupler pocket to hold a train from rolling.

Back to the RULES…

I ran several excursion trains today using the new rules. If I stop to protect all grade crossings (3) plus stopping to throw switches, then stop again to line them back to the main - it takes about 10-11 minutes for one out-and back run with a single train. Add multiple trains and the time from departure to arrival increases by 10-15 minutes for each train that’s added so a 4 train schedule takes about an hour. Not bad for less than 200 feet of track with no industries at all.

JR

#19

A common statement or rule about speed certainly needs to be established. And, of course, this creates the need to establish a way to guge how fast something is traveling. For me, a simple 10 foot marked off area, gives me the basis to check that equipment is not traveling to fast. How many seconds it takes to traverse that measured off distance can be checked against a watch or against the old relieable “one mississippi, two
mississippi” for each second of travel.

#20

15 miles per hour–about average for a narrow gauge train–is 22’ per second. Given the average length of a freight car at around 30’, you can count how many seconds it takes a car to pass a single point on the railroad to gauge your speed. (3 seconds for 2 cars) Back in “the day,” engineers used to count rail joints as the loco moved along. Each rail length was 39’, so a given number of joints in a given amount of time equalled a certain speed.

Later,

K