So,
Pick up a gun and put down the Big Mac 
Carrying a gun does not make one safe.
It can make you better prepared if the situation warrants it.
Obviously, opinions differ as to when it is warranted.
To each his own.
Misuse the tool and it becomes another matter.
Ralph
Ralph Berg said:A sheepdog will only protect his/her flock, so he is always looking out for the wolf. The sheep are left alone, since they are afraid of him as he resembles the wolf, but will seek shelter behind the sheepdog when the wolf is around.
David, I enjoyed the sheep, sheepdog and wolf story. So what are the conflicts among the sheepdogs? How to protect the sheep? Or who is the wolf? Ralph
When a sheep is under attack, why do they call the police and not their lawyer? It is because the police have a gun.
An interesting personal anecdote, on September 11th 2001, I was running errands in the morning in preparation for driving that afternoon to âthe largest and oldest Viet Nam Veteran reunion in the countryâ
I was wearing the reunion t-shirt from the year before and a ball cap, both of which clearly showed my combat veteran status. Heretofore I rarely got ANY acknowledgment, pro or con, when wearing âmy colorsâ. But that morning, I had no less than 6 people come up to me asking what I thought about what was happening, in a deli, a gas station, hardware store, a business client, grocery, etc. Did I change overnight? Was I a well known kung-fu dude? I humbly say it was because these people, sheep, recognized me as a sheepdog that apparently to them, had seen the wolf before and was still standing.
mike, Tony, Tim, tac, et al, criticize this story or me all you want, call me a liar or ask for proof. But thatâs my story and Iâm, stickinâ to it!
Kevin Strong said:
There are two basic theories in play when it comes to carrying a gun.
- I carry a gun, therefore I feel safe.
This implies that the world is inherently unsafe, and the gun provides a sense of security for the person carrying it. At least he/she is protected from the dangers that lurk around every corner. It is at its essence a paranoid view of the world. There are most certainly dangerous corners of the globe where you wouldnât want to be without protection, but your local grocery store probably isnât one of them.
- I feel safe, therefore I have no need to carry a gun.
This view implies that the world is for the most part safe. Counter to the first theory, this may be a bit of a naive view of the world. It assumes that the world is indeed a safe place, and that danger âcanât happen here.â Certainly weâve all read headlines that clearly illustrate that âitâ can.
Neither theory is inherently âbetterâ than the other. Which you ascribe to has everything to do with your personal world view. However, I wonder how many of us who think we fit into the one category actually fit into the other?
Answer these questions: (Theyâre rhetorical, you donât need to post your answers.)
- Do you abstain from smoking or excessive drinking?
- Do you eat well and exercise regularly?
- Do you wear a seatbelt or motorcycle helmet?
- Do you see your doctor regularly? (In a professional sense, not just at the shooting range.
âYesâ answers would allow you to make the following statement:
- I take care of my body, therefore I am healthy.
Itâs arguably a bit hypochondriac, but you know where you stand healthwise and can combat any health dangers.However, a ânoâ to any of those illustrates that youâre willing to take your chances.
2) I feel healthy, therefore I have no need to take care of my bodyâa very naive view of your personal health. Weâve all heard the storiesââif only you had come to see me soonerâŚâIf you feel the need to carry a gun in order to have a sense of security, but take a bit more of a laissez faire approach to your health, are you not in essence pointing the gun at yourself? Packing heat in a McDonaldâs may keep you from getting robbed, itâs not going to keep the fries from clogging your arteries.
(Hint: DO NOT point this out to a 300# Harley rider at a 2nd Amendment rally without an escape route.
Later,
K
I love it Kevin, but, is it still paranoia if they really are out to get you? I am not paranoid because I have a working fire extinguisher and change the batteries in my smoke detectors twice a year (when I change the clocks).
Oh and to follow up on a previous statement by Ralph I think.
You are correct, you are the weapon, your thinking human brain (that God gave you), the gun is only a tool. I was trained in the Army to kill with my bare hands if necessary, (probably could muster the strength today) should the government require I wear handcuffs?
David Hill said:Mr Hill - please leave me out of your argument. I do not live in the United States, as well you know, and I am not qualified in any way to comment on your laws, rules or regulations regarding personal protection, let alone your Constitution. Suffice it to say that if I lived in the USA as an honest and law-abiding citizen, that I would exercise my right to carry arms to protect my family and myself should the need arise, although with such a stalwart 'bare-handed killer hero' as you around, I probably need not bother.
mike, Tony, Tim, tac, et al, criticize this story or me all you want, call me a liar or ask for proof. But that's my story and I'm, stickin' to it!
That is as much as I care to add to this thread.
I would be grateful if you would exclude me from any further comments made by you, to which I have not already contributed in some way. Coat-trailing can get you caught in the doors of life, while it pulls out of the station dragging you behind it.
Please away well away from me in future.
tac
The sheepdog analogy lacks the sheppard.
The conflict among the sheepdogs is to whether the sheppard is also the wolf.
Ralph
Kill with your bare hands!
Now I REALLY respect you.
Iâm still trying to figure out how this wolf sheep/sheepdog thing is supposed to apply. Letâs seeâwe, the people, pay the cops to keep order, with our taxes, and we, the peopleâsorry, the sheepâset the rules the cops can use when they protect us, which is what we hired them to do. We fire them if they do a lousy job. Is that how it works with sheepdogs? I just want to check. Because as far as I can tell, the cops are employees of the sheep, and so i guess sheep hire the sheepdogs and are in fact in charge of them?
I think as far as I can tell if the mayor of my town has the power to fire the police, and they have to do what he says, wouldnât that make them the sheeps, and the mayor, a mere politician, the sheepdog? No wait, thatâs me. He must be the wolf then. No wait, he canât be he doesnât have a gunâŚ
Or maybe itâs just an inane analogy.
This is the genius of democracyâthe people are, all at once, the sheep, the shepherd AND the wolf. People are in fact not sheep or wolves or dogs, they are people, and they donât organize themselves the way sheep, wolves, or dogs do.
Mike, stop trying so hard. 
Take a deep breath, let it go. It will come to you.
You know damn well what he is talking about, you just want to rouse the rabble!
Steve, Iâm enjoying this. Iâm babysitting two four year olds at the moment (Sheepdog) and canât really get any work done.
Ralph gets itâthe sheepdog analogy lacks the shepherd. In democracy THE SHEEP ARE THE SHEPHERD
Davidâs argument doesnât quite makes sense. It assumes things about what people are that donât fit reality. As I pointed out, in our society the sheep are paying the sheepdogs and have the power to hire and fire themâthatâs the point of democracy. Do sheep try sheepdogs for desertion, or âsheepdog brutality?â Analogys that compare people to animals are usually pretty weak, you have to overlook a lot.
The most conspicuous example of this kind of philosophy being advanced in the 20th century is fascism, which argued that most people are by nature, yes, sheep. Mussolini argued that people were made weak by democracy, because the strong, the wolves, were chained up by the weak, the people, the sheep. Fascism, for Mussolini, meant that the wolves should simply seize power by violence and lead the sheep. Hitler argued the sameâpeople are weak and need to be led by men who are stronger by nature. For Hitler, the rule of law was an annoying impediment to the exercise of power.
you can look it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Mussolini liked the sheep metaphor:
âThe Truth Apparent, apparent to everyoneâs eyes how are not blinded by dogmatism, is that men are perhaps weary of Liberty. They have a surfeit of it. Liberty is no longer the virgin, chaste and severe, to be fought for ⌠we have buried the putrid corpse of liberty ⌠the Italian people are a race of sheep.â
âBetter to live a day as a lion than 100 years as a sheep.â
Hitler liked the sheep comparison too:
âhttp://members.tripod.com/~Comicism/450130.htmlâ
Itâs often argued that you know a thread has gone down the toilet when Hitler starts being invoked, and if so Iâm guilty. But think about it. T
Am I calling David a fascist? No. But this kind of argumentâand this is the point Iâm tying to make, is antidemocratic.
Now I have to go clean up after two four year old girls
In my life time I have met two kinds of people. There are the veterans who brag about their wartime experiences, but when you really get to the truth, the nearest they got to the sound of a bullet was the backfire from a passing car. They spent the entire conflict loading trucks at the main base or pumping petrol.
Then there are the true heroes who never speak of their experiences because what they saw and especially did, is something that they wish on no other. A true veteran wants nothing to do with war, but he will commemorate the yearly remembrances, not for his glory, but for the memory of those who fell in battle. Battle forges true friendships. He has seen the worst of the worst and lost the best friends he will ever know.
I had a neighbour who died twelve months ago from the cancerous effects of âagent orangeâ. For years he fought the onset of lymphatic cancer, went into remission and then succumbed to the combined effects of lymphatic cancer and lung cancer. He never smoked in his life and died at 58 years of age. One could have never met a more gentler, sincere man who lived to serve his community. He never spoke of his wartime experiences in Vietnam and apart from being exposed in the jungle to agent orange I would have never known from speaking to him, the things he had seen. It was only after talking to his lifelong friend (who did not serve) that I realised the extent of his experiences in the conflict. Most of the Australians who came back from Vietnam were psychologically affected and had difficulty fitting back into society. They expressed this anxiety by taking it out on their families, their friends and alcohol. Many took their own lives. War is not something to be commemorated as many of its victims actually survive the conflict.
A true veteran is someone who has served his country and is proud, not of himself, but of the country that he has served. I am sick to death of all these gun-toting veterans who boast of their military action and liken people to sheep simply because they would rather another way to handle a conflict, other than killing. Take guns away from street hoods and what do you have, scared little boys, barely out of nappies. A gun is like a shot of whisky. It gives one a false sense of bravado. Our gun advocate and his sidekick, Bobin, tell us that there is less chance of being subjected to violence in this world and yet both carry a gun for protection. Is there not a paradox? The world is safer because I carry a weapon on my person.
Our expert gun toting veteran reminds us that we are all sheep simply because we prefer not to arm ourselves and that one day we will all grow up to be good law abiding citizens, but still sheep. He says that he is not criticising us for being sheep, but basically we all know that sheep like to be lead around. Who does the leading, why the guy with the biggest gun of cause. Our resident veteran (I should have counted how many times he has told us that he âservedâ) would have us believe the world is safer because of real men like him who carry a weapon. He lives in a Hollywood-charged world where reality is illusion and relives the wild, wild west every day with the gun strapped to his hip, ever ready for action. WOW, THIS GUY IS MY HERO!!!
The movie, Gran Torino, sums it up for me. When asked what it is that haunts him about his service in the Korean conflict, the main character replies, âIt is not what I was told to do that haunts me, but what I did that I was not told to do.â When a man survives battle he has to be able to live with both his reality and his memories.
mike omalley said:
Steve, I'm enjoying this. I'm babysitting two four year olds at the moment (Sheepdog) and can't really get any work done.Ralph gets itâthe sheepdog analogy lacks the shepherd. In democracy THE SHEEP ARE THE SHEPHERD
Davidâs argument doesnât quite makes sense. It assumes things about what people are that donât fit reality. As I pointed out, in our society the sheep are paying the sheepdogs and have the power to hire and fire themâthatâs the point of democracy. Do sheep try sheepdogs for desertion, or âsheepdog brutality?â Analogys that compare people to animals are usually pretty weak, you have to overlook a lot.
The most conspicuous example of this kind of philosophy being advanced in the 20th century is fascism, which argued that most people are by nature, yes, sheep. Mussolini argued that people were made weak by democracy, because the strong, the wolves, were chained up by the weak, the people, the sheep. Fascism, for Mussolini, meant that the wolves should simply seize power by violence and lead the sheep. Hitler argued the sameâpeople are weak and need to be led by men who are stronger by nature. For Hitler, the rule of law was an annoying impediment to the exercise of power.
Am I calling David a fascist? No. But this kind of argumentâand this is the point Iâm tying to make, is antidemocratic.
Now I have to go clean up after two four year old girls
Mike, you have my deepest sympathy. Been there, done that. You are out numbered with even only one four year old girl, let alone two.
In Davidâs argument, it is not only the police and the military that are the sheepdogs, but also everyone who has a warrior temperament, whether trained as police or military or not. Even in the military, there are more sheep than sheepdogs, except perhaps in the Marines. Most of the military is made up of support troops, I think the ratio is about 4 or 5 REMFS to one combat troop. Curiously, at least in my experience, there is a significant minority of wolves among the police.
No, the sheepdog is not just someone in uniform, paid out of the common treasury. The sheepdog is someone like you and I who is willing to stand up and be counted when the chips are down. The sheepdog does not require a gun for the job, but it often will make the job easier. Personally, I prefer a Kukri for âwet work.â
Perhaps you have misread Davidâs argument. We all know who the sheep are, those who are willing to be taken care of by a ânanny government,â or by some âbenevolent dictator,â or some such.
The wolves are predators, like a Hitler, or a Mussolini, or Pol Pot, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, the local drug dealer or house breaker.
The sheepdogs are people like you and I who are willing, as citizens, to step in when needed, and protect our neighborhood and those we love.
Perhaps good, but not perfect, examples of a sheepdog are the fictional characters of Zorro, or Elego Baca, or the non fiction character of Kit Carson, or the modern character, Marion Morrison.
Donât count on the shepherd, heâs asleep in the wagon, or ten minutes away in the squad car. The sheepdog will have to protect the flock.
If David says heâs a veteran, Iâll take him at his word and tell him thanks for his service.
My argument has nothing to do with his military service, and everything to do with the antidemocratic implications of his wolf/sheep thing. David has claimed that owning a gun puts him a special category of citizen, and proves he has a better understanding of the nature of rights. I strongly disagree.
Mike,
I do not doubt that our resident guntoting Sheriff actually served, but as Steve has pointed out, for every soldier in action, there are four servicemen supporting him outside the battle area. I feel that he would be less supportive of his beloved weapon if he actually knew its capabilities and the consequences. Shooting targets and game are one thing.
I knew an elderly gentleman who was highly decorated for bravery in the Pacific region in WW2. On one occasion only, I had to pleasure to sit down and talk to him and he actually opened up to me. Prior occasions, he simply refused to even refer to the war. My concern was reports that had surfaced that neither side in a conflict took prisoners, as logistically, it was nigh on impossible to take surrender of the enemy and transport them outside the conflict area. The area was limited access jungle pathways, located on steep hillsides and the action was more guerilla type skirmishes, encountering the enemy in sporadic bursts, rather than a continuous conflict. The battle raged for months. His reply was simply, we never shot an unarmed man. I know that no prisoners were taken on either side and out of respect, I did not push that point. An 'amusing, though poignant' sidestory had him crawling through the jungle on his belly, when he encountered a young enemy soldier, face to face, both laying on their bellies. They looked at each other and then subconsciously made the decision to each back away from a conflict. This man had undoubtedly killed many of the enemy but still had a spark of humanity in him. He put his gun down in 1945 and saw no need to pick up another. He was not a coward or a sheep, but knew what he was capable of when his country called him to action.Tim,
I would class your friend among the sheepdogs. Please give him my regards.
Terry A de C Foley said:David Hill said:Mr Hill - please leave me out of your argument. I do not live in the United States, as well you know, and I am not qualified in any way to comment on your laws, rules or regulations regarding personal protection, let alone your Constitution. Suffice it to say that if I lived in the USA as an honest and law-abiding citizen, that I would exercise my right to carry arms to protect my family and myself should the need arise, although with such a stalwart 'bare-handed killer hero' as you around, I probably need not bother.
mike, Tony, Tim, tac, et al, criticize this story or me all you want, call me a liar or ask for proof. But that's my story and I'm, stickin' to it!That is as much as I care to add to this thread.
I would be grateful if you would exclude me from any further comments made by you, to which I have not already contributed in some way. Coat-trailing can get you caught in the doors of life, while it pulls out of the station dragging you behind it.
Please away well away from me in future.
tac
Iâll respect your wishes, and I will ask the same of you. Do your best, sir.
Ralph Berg said:The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want.
The sheepdog analogy lacks the sheppard. The conflict among the sheepdogs is to whether the sheppard is also the wolf. Ralph
Deleted
If I in any way written anything that appeared as an attempt to elevate my service to some glorious status, it was not intended. ALL Army trainees when I first enlisted, was given hand-to-hand combat training, which as I said I probably do not have the strength or reflexes to use any longer. Not bragging, just trying to make a point about âweaponsâ.
I am proud of my service and have been asked to discuss my contributions to two different universities in my area and about 5 different high and middle schools. One elementary school does a week long tribute to veterans before Memorial Day in May each year where a group of us speak and are interviewed by the children.
I have no problem talking about my service after doing a number of these âhistory lessonsâ. ( I even get to argue with the professor that burned his draft card.) Of course, as most war veterans know, we only tell the stories we want to tell.
I have had my âsheepdogâ mentality since leaving the Army after 6 years active and 2 years reserve duty. I am far from a bad-ass, some that know me call me a big teddy bear.
âWhat Is A Vet?â
Some veterans bear visible signs of their service: a missing limb, a jagged scar, a certain look in the eye. Others may carry the evidence inside them: a pin holding a bone together, a piece of shrapnel in the leg - or perhaps another sort of inner steel: the soulâs ally forged in the refinery of adversity.
Except in parades, however, the men and women who have kept America safe wear no badge or emblem. You canât tell a vet just by looking. What is a vet?
He is the cop on the beat who spent six months in Saudi Arabia sweating two gallons a day making sure the armored personnel carriers didnât run out of fuel. He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior is outweighed a hundred times in the cosmic scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near the 38th parallel.
She - or he - is the nurse who fought against futility and went to sleep sobbing every night for two solid years in Da Nang.
He is the POW who went away one person and came back another - or didnât come back AT ALL.
He is the Quantico drill instructor that has never seen combat - but has saved countless lives by turning slouchy, no-account rednecks and gang members into Marines, and teaching them to watch each otherâs backs.
He is the parade - riding Legionnaire who pins on his ribbons and medals with a prosthetic hand.
He is the career quartermaster who watches the ribbons and medals pass him by.
He is the three anonymous heroes in The Tomb Of The Unknowns, whose presence at the Arlington National Cemetery must forever preserve the memory of all the anonymous heroes whose valor dies unrecognized with them on the battlefield or in the oceanâs sunless deep.
He is the old guy bagging groceries at the supermarket - palsied now and aggravatingly slow - who helped liberate a Nazi death camp and who wishes all day long that his wife were still alive to hold him when the nightmares come.
He is an ordinary and yet an extraordinary human being - a person who offered some of his lifeâs most vital years in the service of his country, and who sacrificed his ambitions so others would not have to sacrifice theirs.
He is a soldier and a savior and a sword against the darkness, and he is nothing more than the finest, greatest testimony on behalf of the finest, greatest nation ever known.
So remember, each time you see someone who has served our country, just lean over and say Thank You. Thatâs all most people need, and in most cases it will mean more than any medals they could have been awarded or were awarded.
Two little words that mean a lot, âTHANK YOU.â
Warner Anderson MD
Chief, Emergency Medicine
Gallup Indian Medical Center
U.S. Public Health Service and LTC, MC Group Surgeon
19 Special Forces Group Airborne
Wednesday, November 11th Veteransâ Day
Quote:That depends on how many black helicopters. Just one, it's paranoia. If it's more than three, you're doomed. ;)
... I love it Kevin, but, is it still paranoia if they really are out to get you? I am not paranoid because I have a working fire extinguisher and change the batteries in my smoke detectors twice a year (when I change the clocks).
The difference with the fire extinguisher argument is that you do not carry the extinguisher with you everywhere you go. You accept the fact that a fire isnât going to spontaneously erupt in the seat next to you. You have it nearby in the off chance that you may actually need it, but donât have the expectation that you actually will. Having it in the house is good enough because you presume that your house is generally safe.
Carrying a gun to the grocery store defies the expectation that grocery stores are generally peaceful places. Iâm not sure where you shop, but the most dangerous thing at my local grocery store is my three-year-old pushing the cart (or is it the baked beans?) The âparanoiaâ aspect comes into play when you feel you need to have your gun with you to just to feel safe in the dairy section. Thatâs the difference between the two theories. Yeah, you can argue âbetter safe than sorry,â but youâd think anyone who carried a fire extinguisher around with them for that reason was something of a loon.
Later,
K
Kevin, do a Google search for âshooting at grocery storeâ sometime. 1,140,000 hits