Large Scale Central

They're after our firearms, again

Tim Brien said:
David Hill said:
Why attempt to separate the two, Tim? Science is science, allow the facts to lead where they do rather than attempt to confine them to a pre-determined outcome.
David, You believe that a god exists, without proof and yet speak of a 'pre-determined outcome'. How does proving creation happened 6000 years ago prove the existence of God and what does it really matter when creation occurred? The belief should be that God created the heavens and the earth, thus making the exact timing totally irrelevant. How does it advance man's understanding of God to know exactly when the hand of God was deployed? It is not God's will that we know, but man's insecurity in his faith.
I find it somewhat ironic that as a Catholic you believe the Pope's word to be infallible, but doubt the Bible.

You are correct that the date of Creation is not relevant to my salvation. I believe the Bible is the inerrant, inspired Word of God, you do not have to. Not my problem.

TonyWalsham said:
See David. By opening your mind to education you can find out all sorts of interesting “stuff”.

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David,
if one looks to history then one will see why the Pope is not accepted by the christian churches. Henry VIII of England was not happy with his bride, Catherine of Aragon, who was the daughter (?) of Phillip II of Spain. The Pope annulled Catherine’s current marriage to allow her to marry Henry VIII. This was to cement peace between the Catholic England and the Catholic Spain. Well, as time would have it and no heirs on the way, Henry took a liking to others in his court. To legitimise an heir he needed a queen and the Pope refused his request to have his marriage to Catherine annulled. Rather than upset the very powerful King Phillip and of cause following his churches protocol rulings, the Pope refused the annullment request. This really peeved off young King Henry as he had heirs to make.

    Henry solved his problem by denying the power of the Pope and setting himself up as the head of the Church 'in' England.  This later became known as the Church 'of' England,  the Anglican Church and other names depending on who formed them.   I believe the Protestants came about during the Reformation and are a breakaway from the Church of England.  The Anglican Church was regarded as the 'high' Church of England.  It is at this time that I believe the term 'Roman'  Catholic Church started,  to distinguish it from the Church 'in' England,  which later became the Church 'of' England.

    Henry's action in dismissing the Pope had several outcomes.  It allowed him to dispose of Catherine of Aragon,  it broke the stranglehold that the Pope had on England and it freed up the Church's wealth in England,  which Henry duly confiscated.  All up,  a very postive outcome for Henry. The current christian churches are based on the churches 'exported' from England,  post King Henry and during England's colonial period.  Thus the predominance, in the colonies,  of christian churches not accepting the Pope as their head.

David,
you really need to look to the history of the bible to realise the imperfections in it. The bible was inspired by God, but written by man. Several hundred years after Christ’s death, holy men of the Church got together and went through the holy texts available at the time, including the books of the Old Testament and those to be included in the New Testament. The men culled through the books and selected those to be included in the bible. Many holy scriptures have been located in obscure monasteries in the Middle East, that were overlooked for inclusion in the bible. Post the death of Jesus, many apostles were females and yet no writings from females are in the Bible. The decision was made that only the word of man was to be included in the text. God did not hand down a complete unabridged version of the bible to man, it was man himself who determined what was to be included in the bible.

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Tim Brien said:
David, you really need to look to the history of the bible to realise the imperfections in it. The bible was inspired by God, but written by man. Several hundred years after Christ's death, holy men of the Church got together and went through the holy texts available at the time, including the books of the Old Testament and those to be included in the New Testament. The men culled through the books and selected those to be included in the bible. Many holy scriptures have been located in obscure monasteries in the Middle East, that were overlooked for inclusion in the bible. Post the death of Jesus, many apostles were females and yet no writings from females are in the Bible. The decision was made that only the word of man was to be included in the text. God did not hand down a complete unabridged version of the bible to man, it was man himself who determined what was to be included in the bible.
As I understand it the monks and the scribes (educated multi-lingual men of faith), based their decision on New Testament books to be included in the King James Bible on if the author ever met Christ in person. In Paul's instance, he met the risen Christ.

Titles and organized religion is reminiscent (in my way of thinking) of some of the rebukes by Christ of the Scribes and Pharisees in Mathew 23.

Again, it is not for me to rebuke anyone on issues of religion. I will defend my faith, and share my testimony, but what you ultimately wish to believe, or not believe is between you and God.

TonyWalsham said:
Tim I think you will find the Pope was not required to annul the first marriage of Catherine of Arragon. She had been married to Arthur, the brother Of Henry, who had died less than 5 months after getting married. Henry was 18 when he married her on the 11th of Jun 1509 and he was crowned 13 days later.
Tony, that was the very first cogent thought I have seen you post since I joined this board. No insulting, no tripe. Congratulations.

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TonyWalsham said:

David Hill said:

TonyWalsham said:
Tim I think you will find the Pope was not required to annul the first marriage of Catherine of Arragon. She had been married to Arthur, the brother Of Henry, who had died less than 5 months after getting married. Henry was 18 when he married her on the 11th of Jun 1509 and he was crowned 13 days later.

Tony, that was the very first cogent thought I have seen you post since I joined this board. No insulting, no tripe. Congratulations.

Ahhhhhhhhhh David. What a condescending twit you really are. I only deal in facts. Llike EVOLUTION. You know, those inconvenient truths you do not want to understand. Happy now? :wink:

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David Hill said:
As I understand it the monks and the scribes (educated multi-lingual men of faith), based their decision on New Testament books to be included in the King James Bible on if the author ever met Christ in person. In Paul's instance, he met the risen Christ.
David, you believe in the bible and use the King James version (16th/17th century?). Was King James around at the time of Christ? One thinks not! The works of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are familar to most versions of the bible. Even amongst the versions available, the text from the men are selected/deleted as appropriate to suit the intent of the teaching of those who printed it. There is more to the bible than just the works of these men.
     Also do you distinguish between Jesus Christ,  pre-crucifixion and the "the risen Christ"?  Same person in my book!  Maybe the 'risen Christ' was 'born again' and thus qualified to enter heaven?  As Jesus was born free from original sin,  he was not required to be born again to be able to be accepted in heaven.  Remember that Jesus Christ IS GOD,  part of the Holy Trinity, God the Father,  God the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Tony,
I believe that the Church had a ruling regarding remarriage to one’s sibling.

quote: “On the 25th of June 1503, she was formally betrothed to the king’s second son, Henry, now prince of Wales, and a papal dispensation for the alliance was obtained.”

Further - “… Catherine gave birth to six children (including two princes), who were all stillborn or died in infancy except Mary, born in 1516, and rumour did not fail to ascribe this series of disasters to the curse pronounced in Deuteronomy on incestuous unions.”

"The act of marriage, which depended for its validity on the decision of the ecclesiastical courts, had, on account of the numerous dissolutions and dispensations granted, not then attained the security since assured to it by the secular law. For obtaining dissolutions of royal marriages the facilities were especially great. "

“In Henry’s case also the irregularity of a union, which is still generally reprobated and forbidden in Christendom, and which it was very doubtful that the pope had the power to legalize, provided a moral justification for a dissolution which in other cases did not exist.”

Note that a papal dispensation was required to allow Henry to marry his dead brother’s wife. My choice of the word ‘annulment’ was incorrect and should have been 'dispensation. To annul the marriage of Henry and Catherine would have meant the Pope had made a mistake in granting the initial dispensation allowing them to marry. Note also that Catherine’s inability to produce a living male heir, prompted many to believe in the words “rumour did not fail to ascribe this series of disasters to the curse pronounced in Deuteronomy on incestuous unions.” Thus many believed that the marriage between Henry and Catherine defied the word of God and was ‘incestuous’ as he married his brother’s wife.

This however, contradicts my memories of the bible, as I believed that a brother had a sense of duty to his deceased brother’s wife and was required to take her as his wife.

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Tony,
my post made reference to ‘betrothed’ not marriage.

Quote: “On the 25th of June 1503, she was formally betrothed to the king’s second son, Henry, now prince of Wales, and a papal dispensation for the alliance was obtained. The marriage, however, did not take place during the lifetime of Henry VII. Ferdinand endeavoured to cheat the English king of the marriage portion agreed upon, and Henry made use of the presence of the unmarried princess in England to extort new conditions, and especially to secure the marriage of his daughter Mary to the archduke Charles, grandson of Ferdinand, and afterwards Charles V. Catherine was thus from the first the unhappy victim of state politics. Writing to Ferdinand on the 9th of March 1509, she describes the state of poverty to which she was reduced, and declares the king’s unkindness impossible to be borne any longer.1 On the old king’s death, however, a brighter prospect opened, for Henry VIII decided immediately on marrying her, the wedding taking place on the 11th of June and the coronation on the 24th.”

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Tim Brien said:
David Hill said:
As I understand it the monks and the scribes (educated multi-lingual men of faith), based their decision on New Testament books to be included in the King James Bible on if the author ever met Christ in person. In Paul's instance, he met the risen Christ.
David, you believe in the bible and use the King James version (16th/17th century?). Was King James around at the time of Christ? One thinks not! The works of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are familar to most versions of the bible. Even amongst the versions available, the text from the men are selected/deleted as appropriate to suit the intent of the teaching of those who printed it. There is more to the bible than just the works of these men.
     Also do you distinguish between Jesus Christ,  pre-crucifixion and the "the risen Christ"?  Same person in my book!  Maybe the 'risen Christ' was 'born again' and thus qualified to enter heaven?  As Jesus was born free from original sin,  he was not required to be born again to be able to be accepted in heaven.  Remember that Jesus Christ IS GOD,  part of the Holy Trinity, God the Father,  God the Son and the Holy Spirit.</blockquote>

No argument here. I was pointing out to anyone that wanted to make an argument that Paul did not “meet” Christ before He was crucified.

David,
we know of Paul as originally ‘Saul’ from memory and an executioner/persecutor of early Christians, who was ‘introduced’ to God in his travels and saw the light. At this moment, I do not actually believe that Paul physically spoke to Jesus. His conversion was a spectacular blinding light. I will look into it but do not believe Paul actually met and spoke to Jesus in person. I stand corrected if required, but believe Paul’s conversion occurred post resurrection.

    Link to Wikpedia.  Note Paul was converted by the 'resurrected' Jesus.  I do not know if this implies the conversion occurred in the six weeks after the crucifixion,  but I believe the 'resurrected' Christ implies post ascension into heaven and thus Paul did not actually meet the 'living' Christ,  since Paul was renowned as a persecutor of early Christians and I do not recall the Christians being persecuted until after Christ's death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus

This quote from the link provided - “Unlike Jesus’ apostles in Jerusalem, Paul had not known Jesus in person.” Paul met Christ in a vision and took instruction from the vision of Christ, post resurrection. Therefore he never actually met him in person.

I’ve been following this dicussion for a while and thought I’d add this to the discussion .To Tony, As a manufacturer and world wide distributor of RCS products do you not include with your product an owners installers manual? The purpose of the manual is to guide your customers in the way to acheive maximun usage and pleasure out of your RC systems,and to minimize the problems they have during an install.Since you are the maker of the product ,you know its strenghts and its weaknesses,and will inform your customers how to achieve the best performance from your product. Your first time customers will (hopefully) read your manual and follow it exactly. However they will be reading it through “track powered eyes” and may not fully understand the use of your product until it is completely installed and operational. They also have the option to “go it on their own” and try to install it based on their limited understanding. It is not mandatory that they read your manual, extremely benificial , but not manditory. So, inevitably the customer butchers the install and wrecks your product. Sadly, you’ve probably had this happen. What does the customer do?..He curses you and your product for his own mistake. I don’t know how you handle situations like this but, it seems to me, you have a choice to repair the product or tell the customer, " Sorry, next time read the manual and you won’t make the same mistake again".Many of the guys on this forum use and endorse your products and I’ve never read anything bad about your products on this forum so I assume that you treat your customer fairly.That is great and very benevolent of you.How does this analogy pertrain to this discussion? Simply this… God is the manufacturer of you and me.He knows our strenghts and weaknesses. He crafted a manual for us… the Bible. In it He included what we need to know to acheive the maxiumum enjoyment of our lives and what things to avoid that can ruin our lives and the lives of those around us(no one falls without hitting others on the way down). The Bible is read through many different ‘‘eyes’’ (levels) of understanding. Too many times the Bible is skimmed through, misunderstood, and even, sadly, abused, but when it is studied and mined for it’s treasures it brings great joy to all.Reading the Bible is not mandatory for life but it is very benificial. God is also very benevolant. When we botch-up our life God already has a plan of redemption in place. It is through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ that our sins are paid. God gives us new life and a clean slate to start all over again and He wants us to READ THE MANUAL…His infallable Word the Bible. Mature born-again followers of Jesus Christ do their very best to understand God and His Word. We are compelled by the truth we know to share this “good news” with others in the hope that others will join us in following Christ. Personally I’ve followed Christ for 30 years and while I haven’t understood all of the journey I have no regrets and only thanks for all God has brought me through and all the heartache and trouble His Word has kept me out of. His love never Fails…