Large Scale Central

The state of the hobby

General Discussion
#1

One follows progress, or lack there of, at intervals - I need intervals otherwise it will be “same old, same Old” most of the time. If one also follows the happenings in the other scales one is entitled to ask: what’s wrong with Large Scale?

After reading the hissy fit about the “insult” (perceived would be the term that comes to mind!) to a member of the Richter family on a certain forum, I’d say: too many legacy issues and too much nostalgia. That along with the perception that everything should be at rock-bottom price …

Perhaps it would be time to do a reality check: what were the reasons for the insolvencies in the industry (any of the scales)? why does it take umpteen announcements prior to merchandise actually hitting the shelves? why do some mfgs have to keep up with the Jones and still muddle along with yet another version of their proprietary hardware which isn’t backwards compatible with their own stuff.

Seems like only the personnel is being recycled, which reminds me … where are they now: Dave Buffington (how’s the Newspaper business?), Tony Castellano, Michael Stevens.
Of course anyone who sees, perceives or suspects any connections in the various messes and the manner in which they (finally?) got sorted out, has either paid attention to what’s going on … or is simply a conspiracy theorist.

Oh BTW there is still some more sorting to do. :wink: :slight_smile: :wink: It will be interesting to see what happens at the NGRC in Tacoma.

#2

HJ,
the future in the hobby is obviously more ‘scale-oriented’ with correct scale/gauge. Unfortunately, many of us are unable to change scales to achieve the ‘new demands’ on the hobby. I recently posted on this dilemma as to the direction the hobby was headed and the legacy of those who still modelled in the now antiquated scales. One response was an emphatic statement as to the purpose of the thread. I felt the post an insult, as one may readily testament the generally useless assortment of topics (mostly off-topic) that frequent the General Topic forum and no one questions the validity of such threads.

I was attempting to make a direction statement on the hobby and made no criticism of any scale.  I feel that the hobby would benefit by more co-operation between the various scales and act together as a cohesive body,  not a disjointed 'us and them' mentality.

In so far as manufacturers,  then each is out to make a buck.  If he has to copy another manufacturer's idea,  then he will.  To the consumer, though,   duplication is a waste of limited resources/capital.   In so far as the personal 'characters' involved in the manufacturing side of the hobby,  then their 'disappearance' is not suprising.  They saw the hobby as a business venture,  rather than a direct personal interest in the hobby as such.  With the passing on of the company,  the characters simply passed on to other business ventures.
#3

If they don’t make what you want then make your own and use their parts?

#4

Hey Rooster,

I’ve been doing that for quite some time, basically on the “there’s gotta be a better way” principle. And since there are quite a few of the same persuasion out there, one can get a lot of nifty stuff from the “not so large producer”.

BTW on that “So?”, gotta check-out what’s happening in the other scales, then it will be “Aha!” instead of “So?”.

#5
Tim Brien said:
... a disjointed 'us and them' mentality.
And there you have the innate nature of humanity.
#6

Tim the trouble with your (correct) prediction about LS getting more scale/gauge specific is that when that happens an already small segment in the model train universe gets more factionalized, the universality that once existing in LS, namely everything runs on anything with everything, gets tossed out the window, now you have an already small manufacturing pool getting further Balkanized into different camps, this has already taken place long ago in O and is now well underway with LS. With the demise of LGB as a major manufacturer and in a sense a unifying element, I cannot help but see once common US profile 1/22.5 eventually fade away along with 1/24, (There will ALWAYS be a market for Euro 1/22.5) and LS getting broken into 3 groups, 1/20.3 narrow gauge, 1/29 mainline standard gauge and a smaller faction of 1/32 scale standard gauge, each with scale specific track/ties combos, now I suspect this will take at least a decade.

The other side of this coin is more grim to me, namely without the universal accessability that was once afforded to LSers around the world, the same divisive factors at work in smaller gauges will eventually overwhelm LS as well, its already starting as older modelers migrate to LS and bring their habits with them.
Now add in that prices keep going up and up and up, this was never a “cheap” hobby but when I started it WAS affordable, it still is but you have to be very carefull in your purchases, now it seems that everything is quickly becoming unreachable for most people, how many people can spend $300 just to start, with some engines now reaching between $500 upwards of $1K just for an electric model locomotive? This slow upward spiral pricing combined with the further Balkanization of LS into different camps I cannot help but forsee this in the long term having net negative effect on newbies chosing to participate.

Maybe its a little depressing but I sure dont see many encouraging movements from any manufacturer. Bachmann just shrugged at the barking over the LS Forney prices, they may just fall back onto new Thomas items for the duration and ditch any new LS stuff, Aristo is in permanant holding pattern on new models, USA hasnt done much new since the Dockside which is already 4-5 years old, HLW hasnt done anything new in a long while either, LGB is just trying to keep above water but they sure seem to be shooting hole in their own boat with thier new item prices.

Am I wrong or just a tad too pessimistic?

#7
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
... BTW on that "So?", gotta check-out what's happening in the other scales, then it will be "Aha!" instead of "So?".
Hans, you leave us two possibilities: either study other scales, that might not be of interest to us, or to live on, without knowing, what you mean.

korm

#8

Vic,
the hobby is definately becoming factionalised. For ‘largescale’ numerically higher than 1/29 scale, we have the ‘British’ 10mm and 1/32 scale. There is definately much controversy between the two camps. Bachmann, Aristo-Craft and USA Trains will no doubt continue to produce their ‘bread and butter’ American 1/22.5 and 1/24 scale items, but apart from repaints, there has been nothing new since the 1990’s in the scale (unless you count Aristo-Craft remotoring the Delton C-16, itself an R1 rule corruption, twice since 2000). How many repaints of the same basic car does one really need?

#9

I knew I should have gotten into O gauge instead. :wink:

Considering the ‘lessor’ scale trains, how recent is the option by the manufacturers to produce ‘other gauge’ models for their track (On3, HOn30)? I suppose the cost of choosing to model in 1 gauge trains is like collecting American Muscle Cars, if you have to ask the price, you can’t afford it.

Amateur radio has recently gone through the same type of attack from the internet with high entry cost, use limitations and the added burden of licensing. It still is an enjoyable hobby with new ‘hams’ added annually, albeit not to the degree the hobby once enjoyed.

We as hobbyists will survive.

#10

0n3 is a very old modeling scale and apart from brass makers there is very little by way of main stream suppliers. The adherents are sticklers for accurate scale.

0n30 is also quite old. Mainly kitbashers using H0 track to represent 30" (2’6" gauge). It was the province of smaller manufacturers until relatively recently, when Bachmann started supplying stuff in a big way.

H0n3 is also the realm of scale sticklers. There was some scratchbuilt equipment pre WW2. Nowadays there is quite a bit of commercial equipment available including the correctly gauged 3’ track.

H0n30 is the smaller cousin of 0n30. It is also a very old scale having been around since before the 1980’s. Popularised by Frary and Hayden it utilises “N” scale track to once again represent 30" (2’6" gauge) track. There is some commercial support but nothing from the really big time manufacturers except Peco who produce “Crazy Track”.

#11

I think the biggest problem is prices. The smaller scales like HO and N are more affordable at least when cmpared to the large scale prices. (Yes even HO scale engines can be expensive but you can get a Bachmann 4-4-0 for $100 and in large scale that same engine is $900. Thats the Bachmann prices) Plus it requires a lot less space to run HO then Large scale.
Then you have the price of track. Thats the biggest killer and rip off.
But then Look at HLW mini series and Mack engine. This is a great example of something being offered at an affordable price. Why dont we see the mini series stuff being used, especially someone just getting into the hobby.
G scale is not advertised as much. I bet if garden center had garden trains running people would buy. They do it with fish ponds and they are very poplular over this way. I think there is more maint involved with ponds and can be just as expensive.
I think when the economy gets better we will be able to get a better gauge of where the hobby is going. Hobbies for most are not first on the list these days.

#12
Korm Kormsen said:
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
... BTW on that "So?", gotta check-out what's happening in the other scales, then it will be "Aha!" instead of "So?".
Hans, you leave us two possibilities: either study other scales, that might not be of interest to us, or to live on, without knowing, what you mean.

korm


Well Korm, read the “New Items” section and the reviews in any of the model railway mags, American, Australian, British, Canadian, German, Swiss etc. etc. and with a bit of imagination you’ll reach a conclusion. Perhaps not the same that I do, but a conclusion. :wink: :smiley:

#13

Advertising the hobby… You mean like almost every model train open house/public display I’ve ever seen advertised is O or HO? And the only time I saw LS in a newspaper story was because some perv was using it to attract kids to his yard?

WHO’S fault is THAT? You can sit in your backyard/garage/armchair and bitch and moan, and it is just wasted air, time, and bandwidth. -OR- You can realise that ALL OF US need to be active ambassadors to the hobby, and DO something to help promote it.

I just spent 2 days at an antique farm machinery show running trains and talking to people. I recently GAVE a R-1 circle of track to a 16YO kid. My stupid little layout runs in plain view of passersby on the highway as much as I can (Didn’t have much choice of where to put it, but it’s already gotten at least two dozen folks to stop and ask questions). Yesterday I redid my webpage (such as it is) to better tell the story of my RR and try to show that you don’t NEED much money, or even a YARD to enjoy LS trains… Ask yourself what YOU’VE done lately to help promote/share YOUR hobby?

Pricing? New products? The damned MOLDS cost about the same in LS as O, BUT the manufacturers can sell 4-10 times more of the smaller scale one - that means they can amortize the cost over a larger production run. Add to that the MATERIALS involved are roughly CUBED when you double in size. That’s 8 times the material as O scale or 64 times HO for those that flunked math. PLUS you have to add UV stabilizers and extra corrosion resistance, etc. for outdoor use. Then remember the B’mann Vulcan? the Mining Mogul? That big diesel thing? The gearing complaints on the K? the pricing complaints on the Forney?-- And that’s just Bachmann… How many stillbirths and flops does it take before manufacturers decide it just isn’t worth bothering with a bunch of fickle cheapass whiners? Want the choices to go up and prices to go down? The ONLY way is to increase the DEMAND. What BUSINESS has money to flush down the toilet to produce or promote something that currently has such a limited appeal as LS? … Yes, we’re back to that uncomfortable ‘ambassador’ thing, again.

Time to put up, or shut up? Pretty much. But then, bitching, not baseball is, and always has been, the true American national pastime.

Rant mode off, nomex undies on.

#14
Shawn said:
I think the biggest problem is prices. The smaller scales like HO and N are more affordable at least when cmpared to the large scale prices. (Yes even HO scale engines can be expensive but you can get a Bachmann 4-4-0 for $100 and in large scale that same engine is $900. Thats the Bachmann prices) Plus it requires a lot less space to run HO then Large scale. Then you have the price of track. Thats the biggest killer and rip off. But then Look at HLW mini series and Mack engine. This is a great example of something being offered at an affordable price. Why dont we see the mini series stuff being used, especially someone just getting into the hobby. G scale is not advertised as much. I bet if garden center had garden trains running people would buy. They do it with fish ponds and they are very poplular over this way. I think there is more maint involved with ponds and can be just as expensive. I think when the economy gets better we will be able to get a better gauge of where the hobby is going. Hobbies for most are not first on the list these days.
Shawn, one reason we dont see as much HLW stuff anyomore is that its simply gotten harder to find, not alot of brick and morter shops carried them, I was fortunate when i started that Sanval kept a good stock inventory of HLW so I got inducted into the HLW camp fairly early, but I have only come across tham at a few other shops, searching the internet will reveal sources but even they can run short. I worry that most HLW stuff today is quite often listed as backordered and there doesnt seam to be much happening in Peoria these days.

I also agree about track prices being a huge disattraction to newbies, but the surprising thing is that I would have expected to see a modest return to the R1 ruled layout, makes sense as you can get a nice layout installed for alot less in a smaller area and still have a GR. But instead what has happened is this, new modelers are grim determined to run thier new Dash-9K-27SD-70 and they will either hold out until they can scrounge up the wider track, or they will simply pass altogether if they realize they can’t afford afford both the train and the track.

#15
Mik said:
Pricing? New products? The damned MOLDS cost about the same in LS as O, BUT the manufacturers can sell 4-10 times more of the smaller scale one - that means they can amortize the cost over a larger production run.
My line of thought is that that is not commonly thought about.
Mik said:
Add to that the MATERIALS involved are roughly CUBED when you double in size.
That costs the manufacturer more per item to make the thing.
Mik said:
PLUS you have to add UV stabilizers and extra corrosion resistance, etc. for outdoor use.
That also costs the manufacturer more per item to make the thing.
#16

(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp52/steamnut1917/P5160003.jpg)

Very good Mik! :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue: You participate in Spelling Bees too, don’t you? :lol: :lol:

#17

well, the state of the hobby…

from here, in the outbacks of a unimportant little rural country in the poorer part of the world it looks, like any luxury depends mainly on the economics in general.
if i look at the economics in the western world, all i see are states that are hollowed out by “deficit spending”, states that have no other choice, but to go into hyperinflation, untill the time is ripe for a complete reset. (like germany suffered in the 20ies and after WW2)

my reaction to this looming hardships is simple.
everything, i plan to use for my LS-hobby in the next ten years, i am buying now.
when i got the wheels from Ralph, the only things still needed are one 0-4-0 loco and four bricks for motorized tenders.

so, after TSHTF, i will have enough time AND enough materials to pursue my hobby.

we can whine how much we want. but the facts are there, and they are visible, if we only look.
since the seventies the production of all kinds of goods (including our toys) has been increasingly outsourced to asia.
smaller and middle sized enterprises have disappeared.
regardless ofwhat it is, cars, tools, clothing or toys, everything is of worse quality with relative unchanged prices.

the optimists may go on waiting for rising quantities of high end locos etc., but there will not be many in the near future.

the state of the hobby is DO IT YOURSELF.

ploing, ploing (that was my two cents to the topic)

#18
Hans-Joerg Mueller said:
You participate in Spelling Bees too, don't you? :lol: :lol:
No spelling bees. Built a 'could have been' 440 6-pack Super Bee clone out of a '73 318 Charger years ago, does that count?

For those who can’t see my little joke, the pictures are supposed to work again on or after the 22nd. Either I posted too many (about 60) pix this month, or a few people actually LOOKED at them… (either I’m an attention whore, or I just like to share what I’m doing with others to encourage them to try as well, your guess is as good as mine…)

#19

Nah, you just ticked off photobucket! That’s something I expext from Verizon!

#20

My problem is the Chinese Communist Capitalists… Did I say that out loud?..

Actually, I don’t really have a problem with them, I just said that to see if I can get another rise our of Mike O’Malley. :lol: He never reads my stuff past the first sentence.

Stinker, aren’t I?