When in England , at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building’ by George Bush.
He answered by saying, 'Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women
into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return
is enough to bury those that did not return.’
You could have heard a pin drop.
And yet, and yet … Colin Powell still got suckered into giving that speech before the UN about the WMD. Disappointing for a man of his calibre and basic integrity, don’t you think?
Must be that “the commandre in chief has spoken” reflex that temporarily disables the brains, eh?
If the Brits, the Russians, the Chinese, the Israelis, the Canadians and even the Frogs believed the intel, why wouldn’t Mr. Powell?
And please don’t give me that tired old Bush lied crap. Saddam wanted everybody to believe that he had the stuff.
Steve Featherkile said:
If the Brits, the Russians, the Chinese, the Israelis, the Canadians and even the Frogs believed the intel, why wouldn't Mr. Powell?And please don’t give me that tired old Bush lied crap. Saddam wanted everybody to believe that he had the stuff.
Steve Featherkile said:
If the Brits, the Russians, the Chinese, the Israelis, the Canadians and even the Frogs believed the intel, why wouldn't Mr. Powell?And please don’t give me that tired old Bush lied crap. Saddam wanted everybody to believe that he had the stuff.
Ah, Tony has spoken from on high.
Hmmm.
So, one repeats the “common knowledge”, including Mr. Heinz Ketchup and olf algore, the only ones picked on are administration folks?
Yet, factual lgb data comes out, those who publish are sob’s, yet those who spin the lies are heroes?
How about those fighters they found buried in the sand?
French electronics dated AFTER the ban on importing such…yet the frogs get a “walk”.
If it wasn’t such a godforsaken terrorist stronghold, why all the fighting?
Steve Featherkile said:Steve,
Ah, Tony has spoken from on high.
Like it or not there were even Americans who thought that the WMD was a bunch of lies, not to mention those people who actually went to Iraq and looked for the stuff including the commission headed by Hans Blix. But I forget that there’s two strokes against him
he hails from neutral Sweden. The pesky country who took in resisters and whose PM Olaf Palme had the incredible nerve, as Minister of Education, to join a public protest against the Vietnam War.
his was a UN commission. Those commissions are only to be trusted if their findings coincide with US “findings”.
After all the world has always been ruled by might is right, except in those cases when the might wasn’t quite enough and “the mighty” were ganged up on.
BTW I’m still of the opinion that the veto right at the UN should be scrapped and all security council and general assembly votes be by “semi-secret ballot” i.e. the compositions of all votes are only announced at the closure of the respective sessions.
The constellation of the UN would certainly experience a marked shift!
Oh yeah and all those “welfare cases” who are in arrears with their dues should be suspended from voting until they’re paid up. 
Curmudgeon said:
Hmmm.So, one repeats the “common knowledge”, including Mr. Heinz Ketchup and olf algore, the only ones picked on are administration folks?
Yet, factual lgb data comes out, those who publish are sob’s, yet those who spin the lies are heroes?
How about those fighters they found buried in the sand?
French electronics dated AFTER the ban on importing such…yet the frogs get a “walk”.If it wasn’t such a godforsaken terrorist stronghold, why all the fighting?
Humour on:
You know guys, if there ever was the perfect instance for “… wait until next week!” that Iraq mess is it. The Pentagon should have hired “the Ventilators”, the media would have taken the “is there proof?” position and to this very day it would still be " … wait until next week". I mean, after all the Pentagon couldn’t possibly publish insubstantiated “proven facts”, could they? :lol: :lol:
Yellow cake would have been a new product from Betty Crocker, with that special, glib and slippery Bush/Cheney icing, best served with stiff whipped cream that Rumsfeld is fond of (it’s that complete transparency of the stuff!).
Humour off!
I sincerely hope my American friends do not think I get any pleasure in pointing out the error of the ways of the current USA administration.
To the contrary, I find it most disturbing that so many thousands of brave USA and Coalition servicemen and women have been sent to needlessly premature deaths in the war in Iraq.
A war started by a group of neocon fanatics and based on barefaced lies.
Sometimes it is the duty of ones friends to point out what has gone wrong, even if the recipients of the advice don’t want to hear that advice.
Steve Featherkile said:
When in England , at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building' by George Bush.He answered by saying, 'Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and womeninto great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return
is enough to bury those that did not return.’You could have heard a pin drop.
“Everyone” did not believe there were WMD. There were plenty of people in government and out, who knew the WMD idea was suspect. There were people at the CIA, a majority it turns out, saying “the evidence is not there” and the admin. was simply refusing to listen. When Hans Blix did his inspections and concluded Saddam didn’t have the WMD, he was accused of being a “appeaser” and a dupe and incompetent. I watched Powell’s presentation to the UN and thought the evidence he presented would not have passed muster in my senior research seminar. And it has since come out that Powell KNEW the evidence he presented was doubtful(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/jun/02/usa.iraq). If you’re going to send kids to die, you’d better be sure of the facts.
Overseas, in England, there were many many people who were telling Blair the evidence was faulty. It’s just wrong to say “everyone agreed.” Read the “dwoning street memo” (http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/1). Fault Clinton all you want, I certainly do, but he looked at the evidence and knew there was enough doubt that invasion was not warranted.
There’s lots of talk about “personal responsibility” on these forums, generally directed at poor people. One of the things you want in a leader-probably the crucial thing–is good judgment, the ability to weigh evidence and come to the right decision. The Bush admin wanted war and they didn’t care how they got it. A friend of mine worked for the DIA (Defense Intelligence agency) and remembered coming out of a briefing where one of the neocons, a Bush appointee, told them that Saddam was responsible for the Oklahoma City bombing–and this was BEFORE 9/11. They had no ability to objectively weigh evidence and make good judgments. That’s failed leadership. Bush should have resigned in disgrace, and taken Cheney with him.
OR here–how about this
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12308.html
If it’s true–and I haven’t read the book yet or checked its claims–The bush admin. used the CIA to forge a letter claiming a connection between Saddam and AlQueda. But it’s not a novel claim–as the link I posted above points out, the Brits, and Powell, knew that the evidence was sketchy at best
Ok–
Badly misjudging the nature and extent of Saddam’s “threat” to the US
Knowingly faking information to go to war.
Badly badly mismanaging the occupation, so that trillions–trillions–of dollars have been spent to eliminate a threat that did not exist. When’s that bill coming due?
Let’s make that clear–deliberately faking a connection between Saddam and AlQueda, so that they could send american kids to die on false pretenses.
Sounds like an impeachable offense to me.
mike omalley said:Steve Featherkile said:
When in England , at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of empire building' by George Bush.He answered by saying, 'Over the years, the United States has sent many of its fine young men and womeninto great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return
is enough to bury those that did not return.’You could have heard a pin drop.
Tell that to the Indians!
The monolithic “Indians” never was… The various tribes… excuse me… Nations… were at each other’s throats so much and so often that it was easy to divide and conquer. They were doing it to each other, we just did it better.
mike omalley said:
OR here--how about thishttp://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12308.html
If it’s true–and I haven’t read the book yet or checked its claims–The bush admin. used the CIA to forge a letter claiming a connection between Saddam and AlQueda. But it’s not a novel claim–as the link I posted above points out, the Brits, and Powell, knew that the evidence was sketchy at best
Ok–
Badly misjudging the nature and extent of Saddam’s “threat” to the US
Knowingly faking information to go to war.
Badly badly mismanaging the occupation, so that trillions–trillions–of dollars have been spent to eliminate a threat that did not exist. When’s that bill coming due?
Let’s make that clear–deliberately faking a connection between Saddam and AlQueda, so that they could send american kids to die on false pretenses.
Sounds like an impeachable offense to me.
Quote:And a few square miles for an air base here or there, the occasional missile silo, favorable trade agreements...
... The only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those that did not return...
Nothing in international politics has ever been done out of the goodness of one’s heart.
Quote:Hey, we paid for Manhattan fair and square! Too bad the real estate agent--Barnum--would only be remembered for his circus. ;)
... Tell that to the Indians!
Later,
K
TonyWalsham said:
I sincerely hope my American friends do not think I get any pleasure in pointing out the error of the ways of the current USA administration.To the contrary, I find it most disturbing that so many thousands of brave USA and Coalition servicemen and women have been sent to needlessly premature deaths in the war in Iraq.
A war started by a group of neocon fanatics and based on barefaced lies.Sometimes it is the duty of ones friends to point out what has gone wrong, even if the recipients of the advice don’t want to hear that advice.
Steve Featherkile said:I don't have to--the evidence for this kind of behavior is everywhere. They wanted to go to war with Iraq, they thought it would be a fast, easy win that would pay for itself. They were wrong on every count.
Ron Suskind, a writer for the Daily Kos and the Huntington Post, another Bush Hater, who makes his living publishing drivel like this, and we are supposed to believe his unsubstantiated lies? Bother! C'mon, Mike, you can do better than this, can't you?
I have no idea if Suskind’s evidence is reliable–as I said I haven’t checked it, I assume he has some. The book isn’t even out yet. But really, it’s just another example–did you ever read the “Downing Street Memo?” The other link I included makes the point that Powell knew the evidence was bogus. The niger yellowcake forgery? The fact that “curveball,” their major source, was certified schizophrenic? Ahmed Chalabi, the con man they followed off the cliff?
This has become the standard answer–oh he’s a liberal, he’s a Bush hater, it’s just the liberal media. It’s not really an answer. In this case, as Stephen Colbert put it, “reality has a liberal bias!”
Yes, “the indians” were not a united nation, and they fought among themselves, but so what? They were on the land, we pushed them of and declared it ours. We sent our boys to fight in the west, starting in, oh, 1608, and we kept the land.
But how about this example–the war with Mexico
Here’s the brief synopsis
Slave owning American move into the region of texas.
Texas announces the abolition of slavery
Slaveowning texans declare an independent republic
The US goes to war to protect them
We win, we get Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. We march in, we take it
Or this example–we fight the Spanish in 1898. We liberate the Phillipines. Emelio Aguinaldo declares an independent Philippinee republic. We respond by occupying the country and end up killing at least quarter of a million people in the process
Here’s a quote, from Indian Senator Albert Beveridge, for a speech called “In Suport of American EMPIRE”
"apply any academic arrangement of self-government to these children. They are not capable of self-government. How could they be? They are not of a self-governing race. They are Orientals, Malays, instructed by Spaniards in the latter’s worst estate.
They know nothing of practical government except as they have witnessed the weak, corrupt, cruel, and capricious rule of Spain. What magic will anyone employ to dissolve in their minds and characters those impressions of governors and governed which three centuries of misrule has created? What alchemy will change the Oriental quality of their blood and set the self-governing currents of the American pouring through their Malay veins? How shall they, in the twinkling of an eye, be exalted to the heights of self-governing peoples which required a thousand years for us to reach, Anglo-Saxon though we are? "
I lie America–I’m proud to be American. But Powell was forgetting a couple things