Saw this, thought some might be interested
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/21/harrod.high.speed.rail.trains/index.html?hpt=T2
If you build it, they will ride…riden HSTs in Europe, once you’ve experienced it you can only conclude that the neigh-sayers have no idea what the real potential is because they’ve never been exposed to it. Interesting how all the Yahoos crying against this are primarily rural/suburban states, send that fed funding to California, we have the plan and the will to do it, we cant build anymore new freeways here without years of expensive litigation, same for airport expansion, the freeways and airports we have are already operating at maximum capacity, HST rail is the logical next step and its HAS been a proven deliverer of efficient high speed transit in a dozen countries around the world, its just the knuckleheads in this country who would rather pay $4+ a gallon and drive their 12mpg porkmobile SUVs cross country or fly at the airports and risk getting fisted and worked like a Muppet by TSA after waiting for 2 hrs in line for a 1 hr flight only to be stuck on the tarmac for 4 hrs, yeah that sure sound much better. Wait till we hit $5 a gallon this summer, then we’ll see how their constituents feel about public transit funding
(http://quitenormal.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/lolgas.jpeg)
BTW for any neighsayers here about to tell me why its so wrong, one question, have YOU ever riden an HST, the Acela, or the TGV or the ICE or the Shikesin or anything other than Amtrak??? Its just my experience that some of the most vocal opponents havent even been on a passenger train in years, so I’m curious as to why the negativity when the entire system the president envisioned could be payed for for the contemporary equivelent price our military payed for 3 (THREE!!!) Seawolf class nuclear attack submarines or 20 Stealth bombers!!! http://www.northernsun.com/images/imagethumb/Republicans-No-Button-(0987).jpg
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No, it couldn’t be paid for by the price of three subs… (8.4 billion).
An average freight engine today runs in excess of 3 million a pop. Standard heavy-duty freight rail runs approximately 5mil/mile. Any system that is used by the US, in order to be successful, must travel in excess of 500mph. That means maglev.
I’m headed out the door to dinner with the kids… I’ll be happy to discuss details when I return… by the way, I SUPPORT HSR.
MagLev? The same debacle they’ve (not) been building in Pittsburgh for, oh… about 20 years? That will be fun.
The problem with any system proposed is NiMBY, and “WiiFM” (“What’s in it for me?”) If it requires folks set one pinky outside of their comfort zone, or have an additional 10 minute daily delay for construction… fuggetaboutit.
They’d rather travel in a cattle car with wings. … because at least there is infrastructure in place when you arrive. We’ve spent 50 years systematically destroying the rail corridor infrastructure. It will take a lot, lot, lot of investment to bring that back. Can it be done? If the traffic demands it. But you won’t get the investment without the proven traffic - or - the traffic without the infrastructure to make it convenient. A neat little Catch-22 if there ever was one
And I doubt many folks think of rail travel as what they saw in old movies. They think of the NY or Philly subway and much of old Amtrak. Dirty. rundown, unfriendly. BTW It took us 45 minutes to find the Amtrak station in Johnstown, Pa. two Christmases ago. It looked like just another old warehouse on a narrow street full of industrial buildings in the dark.
Do I support rail travel? Yes. Do I see it happening without a major cultural and attitude shift? No. $5/gal gas won’t do it. It will just crash the economy and make the marginal folks suffer. The article was right on one point, the real issue isn’t economic. Or any other one put forth publicly. It’s an emotional knee-jerk with a thin layer of rationalized covering.
For good or ill, we made a decision to abandon rail long before Eisenhower was President. - The Interstate Highway System and commercial air just made it easier and happen faster. Reversing that momentum will be like… stepping in front of a train.
Jason, When inflation adjusted from then dollars to todays dollars the total overall development costs of the three Seawolfs was about the same as the current HST proposal, its all a matter of priorities, whats truely important? An efficient national transit system or more weapons systems for a threat that no longer exists?
Mik, oh I know $5 will only cause much gnashing of teeth but that everywhile will just pay it goaning and whinning all the while they fill their H2 Blingmobile…somewhere I read that it would take $7 a gallon to truely kill off our love affair with oversized cars.
I’m already planning for a $5 a gallon gas world with the purchase of my next car 2 years from now, which I hope will be a Fiat 500 Abarth SS, which gets close to 40mpg and still has a 160 hp turbo engine and goes like a bat out of 
. Already test driven the standard 500, one of the neatest cars I’ve driven in a while, no hybrid batteries to go bad like the stupid Honda Civic, and its been a hugely successfull car in Europe and has had great reliability reports, this company ain’t your grandpa’s '74 Fiat 124 that fell apart after 120 miles anymore. 
My wife’s 2003 Buick Century got 40mpg on the highway and could seat 6.
I bought it after renting one for vacation, and averaged 40mpg on the trip.
Should have kept that car =(
Ralph
…looks in to see if everyone is behaving…
Big Brother errrr Bob is watching.
I’m getting my bicycle ready to go to work. It has a battery powered booster motor and is solar charged. It won’t use gas or electric and runs 20 mph. just right for my 2 1/2 mile commute to work. David
Victor Smith said:
If you build it, they will ride…riden HSTs in Europe, once you’ve experienced it you can only conclude that the neigh-sayers have no idea what the real potential is because they’ve never been exposed to it. Interesting how all the Yahoos crying against this are primarily rural/suburban states, send that fed funding to California, we have the plan and the will to do it, we cant build anymore new freeways here without years of expensive litigation, same for airport expansion, the freeways and airports we have are already operating at maximum capacity, HST rail is the logical next step and its HAS been a proven deliverer of efficient high speed transit in a dozen countries around the world, its just the knuckleheads in this country who would rather pay $4+ a gallon and drive their 12mpg porkmobile SUVs cross country or fly at the airports and risk getting fisted and worked like a Muppet by TSA after waiting for 2 hrs in line for a 1 hr flight only to be stuck on the tarmac for 4 hrs, yeah that sure sound much better. Wait till we hit $5 a gallon this summer, then we’ll see how their constituents feel about public transit funding(http://quitenormal.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/lolgas.jpeg)
BTW for any neighsayers here about to tell me why its so wrong, one question, have YOU ever riden an HST, the Acela, or the TGV or the ICE or the Shikesin or anything other than Amtrak??? Its just my experience that some of the most vocal opponents havent even been on a passenger train in years, so I’m curious as to why the negativity when the entire system the president envisioned could be payed for for the contemporary equivelent price our military payed for 3 (THREE!!!) Seawolf class nuclear attack submarines or 20 Stealth bombers!!! http://www.northernsun.com/images/imagethumb/Republicans-No-Button-(0987).jpg
Okay, I’m back… got texas hotdogs for the wife & kids, new booger king nuggets for me. Dinner included a show of four trains… one loaded coal bucket headed east to Harrisburg (probably for the York Haven power plant), one headed north over the Nittany & Bald Eagle line to Lock Haven for the Strawberry Ridge power plant. One empty coal bucket headed west to be reloaded at the mines and a westbound truck train bound for Pitcairn, Conway and points west.
ANYWHO… okay, lets start with the infrastructure comment. I 150% agree. A successful implementation of HSR in the United States requires it to be competitive with domestic air travel. Again, this means at LEAST 500mph, and probably realistically a minimum of 600mph. The only train capable of such speed is Maglev. I’m not talking some rinky ding prototype or ten mile test track, I’m talking mainline, grade-separated trackage, likely in the range of approximately 3,500 miles of routes, and utility would suggest a double-track situation reaching 7,000 miles of track. This, considering that the smallest freight road is NS with over 22,000miles of track routes.
My vision is that the National Passenger Rail Corporation would operate the high-speed maglev loops… basically a large circle of track around CONUS. Amtrak could choose to build stations wherever it deemed economically sound. Each state would have one of two choices… a) operate its own intrastate “commuter” operations. b) contract Amtrak to provide services.
Amtrak’s trains would be a locomotive with a train of flatcar-like cars. The passenger compartments would simply lock into the maglev cars. Upon arrival at a station where they were to transfer to a local operation, there is no reason that the compartments couldn’t be designed to lock into standard steel-wheel/rail cars designed for that purpose. A simple gantry-crane-like machine would lift the compartment off the maglev carrier and place it onto a railcar. Depending on engineering designs, the maglev car could either be programed to alter its magnetic signature to adjust for the lack of a compartment, or each station would be required to offer a one-for-one trade where every compartment removed from the maglev had to be replaced. Much like modern freight car rates which are quoted from the shipper to the recipient across multiple railroads, a ticket would be sold, priced from origin station to destination. Got to love the efficiency of computers.
Option A) Each state operation would pay a franchise fee to lock into the maglev loops. In this section, I envision small states having one central maglev "transload: station. Larger states could choose to purchase multiple franchises to have multiple stations scattered throughout the state. The state would then be responsible for its own operations within the state. This could be either additional maglev tracks of its own, connected to the national loops only via the station transfers, or could be standard steel-wheel/rail or a mix of the two, steel for smaller commuter operations, and maglev for corridor operations. Or whatever they want. Its totally their choice to fund whatever they want. Costs: leveed against the states based on what they think is warranted. Revenue: split based on ticket revenues.
Option B) The state’s service would be at the economic decisions of the Amtrak National Profitability Committee. Amtrak would be authorized to build stations only where they deemed it economically prudent, and to support it with local operations only as they deemed warranted. Amtrak’s decisions would be final. Costs: leveed against Amtrak. Revenue: belongs to Amtrak.
Option C) Same as “B” except that the state could purchase expanded service by subsidizing their local operations. This actually could be done in one of two means: C-1 would have the state pay for the infrastructure and sign operations over to Amtrak through a concessionaire’s agreement. C-2 would have the state build the local operations based on where Amtrak deemed most profitable. Costs: C-1: Amtrak determines profit margin and states get percentage set by agreement C-2: Same as Option A
Option D) The state could opt out of service completely. Amtrak would be authorized to build tracks via emminent domain to the exclusion of private property. (But direct purchase of private property permissible)
As for Nimbies and the other one: Well, the NiMBY’s can go get bent for all I care. Seriously though, offer the NIMBY’s a choice… highspeed maglev rail or an interstate. They don’t get a “neither” option. As for the others… well, my option for highspeed rail has a certain added benefit. The RoW for the maglev tracks could also be used for major upgrades to the electrical grid, allowing massive solar & wind farms to transmit their power as far as it will go. This would have the added benefit of being able to turn the entire maglev grid into a major utility trunk servicing the entire US. Imagine fiberoptics for home internet, power, water, natural gas, etc. All available via massive trunks throughout the country simply with a tap on needed.
No-one is going to get very many North Americans, to peddle a bicycle, with or without any booster motor, to work in a snow storm or a light rain, on a regular basis. The private automobile, small or large, will rule for more years than I or most of us will see. It would be great to see a sensible, slow but constant turn towards rail passenger transportation. It doesn’t need to be what is so-called High Speed. It just has to be dependable, and at a speed that can compete with the average speed limit on the highways today.
There are many dreamers out there, who champion HST, but they haven't a clue when it comes to common sense. I am a great fan of rail, and I think it is what we need, and should never have lost, but I'm also a realist.....
This topic will never be solved here, and bringing politics to this forum is not the way to go; so let's get back to MODEL RAILROADING, and having fun.HST is truly a unique concept that I do not believe will fly here in the US. Unfortunately we do not move as many people from a to b as in Japan and China. The TGV provides a means to get across France where no major freeway exists. The closest to that situation is the eastern seaboard corridor between NY and DC. We are going to continue to be victims of the petroleum empires for a good time longer. If you remember or look in to it, Los Angeles had a killer light rail network/system until the 1950’s. What killed it? GM Buses (provided almost free) and big oil. Light rail didn’t burn gas or diesel plus didn’t need tires every year…Humm. Oh well, back to building 1/2" scale building am I.
Other than a novelty ride, once or twice, I can’t imagine a reason to have high speed rail for myself, my family or almost anyone that lives in our community. Where would we go? One of the mega ghettos? Other than to leave as soon as possible to avoid being mugged, why would we go there? Escaped 36 years ago, sure don’t want to go back. If that is the only source of travel, it like the airplane, will just be something else we don’t do any more.
Ric, imagine driving to your local commuter op line or even your state’s maglev station. Jump on the express from… illinois to florida. You can be there in a little over an hour longer than by airplane. Plus, you could take your car with you for the week you are at Disney/SpaceportUSA/H&RTrains.
Hows that for a reason? Or, jump on the westbound maglev to Vegas, jump a 110mph steel-rail commuter to Williams and take the GCRy to the canyon rim. All in a matter of less than a day. And you never left the ground… well unless you could the fact that the maglev tracks are 30ft off the ground.
well, the highspeed trains do not transport cars.
the whole point, which transport to choose is distance.
in europe you have one major city just beside the next.
at a flight time of less than an hour (plus one hour check in and half an hour check out) a speedy train without checking in makes sense.
but in the two americas there are just very few areas, where city to city high speed trains would be of an advantage.
(some miles along the east coast plus LA to frisco - and that’s it.)
most americans with money are rural or semi rural. the city dwellers are mostly too poor to travel.
Jason,
I have imagined it and I have no desire to go to those places anymore on a plane, so comparing that for train travel doesn’t sound like much fun.
We go to Canada every year for the Invasion at Fred’s, if I can’t bring my train and bicycles, half the fun is gone. We go to York each year for the East Coast Large Scale Train Show. We have a full size GMC Van packed with our layout and friends. Would I have to declare AndyC as excess baggage? I don’t think so. You talk to him about climbing in that little basket to be measured to see if he’ll fit in the overhead or under a seat. Let alone the restrictions of liquid refreshment for the “drag and brag”. The thoughts of the restrictions and freedom makes it not worthwhile. You think there is going to be hi speed rail to Orbisonia, PA? Me neither. I don’t go, other people don’t go, what’s the value of preserving old railroad history? Might as well turn it all into scrap metal to be shipped off to China.
If your happy with the “Change”, I’m happy for you. I don’t have any desire for the United States to be like Europe, China, Japan, Mexico or Kenya. I’ll vote to change it back.
Ric,
I would love to see Andy try to squeeze into that little basket.
Do you think that you could arrange that, and take pictures to report back with?
Thanks, ever so much.
:lol:
“I would love to see Andy try to squeeze into that little basket.
Do you think that you could arrange that, and take pictures to report back with?”
He’ll just blame me for pushing him down.
…grinning…