Large Scale Central

Temporary Layouts? Ala Port Orford Style?

Track and Trestles
#1

I think most of us are familiar with Richard Smith’s design of the Port Orford railroad. I would describe it as a raised benchwork with minimal landscaping impact. With that background here’s my question/pondering.

After being in an apartment for the last three years, I finally scored my first post graduate degree job, teaching in a small town in southern Idaho. We’ll be there for at least one school year, and possibility two, but I’m ready for a layout again. I had a traditional trench and fill layout at our house in Port Orchard, WA (currently renting it, with the hope that we can move back, or sell and buy a different house) and I hated it. I decided that I wouldn’t build a on the ground layout again, but would use an approach similar to Richard Smith’s. So with that background and the knowledge that a move is likely in 1-2 years again (plus who knows if the landlords would approve of me ripping out the lawn for a garden RR) what’s some pros/cons of trying to build a temporary, but yet semi-permanent layout that could be moved with some work?

I was thinking that if I used the benchwork approach, the legs could be designed to come apart/collapse, with the roadbed staying in tack. Much like the modular layouts in smaller scales. Yes it would be heavy to move, but in theory it could be possible?

Thoughts? Pros/Cons?

This might be all academic if I’m swamped during my first year of teaching, but its generating some ideas in my head.

#2

Both Ric Golding and the Vermont Garden Railway Society(VGRS/US) have built variations of the the Timesaver puzzles on portable modules. vgrs.us Events 2014 page has some information.

The following link connects from that page:

https://picasaweb.google.com/vtgrsociety/TimesaverProject?authkey=Gv1sRgCMnCqcaCt8P61wE&feat=email

Overall view: https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-zd7-eF4armw/U2D726HNM1I/AAAAAAAAH9s/mlrC2GX7W58/s720/DSC02080.JPG

I can send higher res if needed.

ECLSTS 2014 has a pic with “Bobby the Blabbermouth boxcab”

http://www.largescalecentral.com/forums/topic/21086/eclsts-2014-pics-post-them-up

Shows one view of Ric Golding’s

#3

If I was to build my idea, I would be building a section of layout that could be used for my future permanent layout. I’ll see if I can post a picture of what it would be. A single main line, with a passing siding, with a feed mill off the siding. This would provide a bit of room for my loco to stretch its legs, and for a good test of track weathering, etc.

If modeled without selective compression, I’m looking at something 50’ long by 8’ wide (at the narrow end) and 10’ on the wider! The feed mill is in storage at the moment and has a square footage of 7’ x 6’

Obviously, I couldn’t model the whole thing without selective compression. Or just build up the area around the feed mill, allowing room tail room on the siding, with the main being a ‘dummy’ track.

#4

What about building it on a trailer? Hmmmm?

#5

Craig - I think your idea is quite workable. You could use patio blacks and post bases to secure the legs, and attach legs and leg braces with bolts or lag screws that could be removed. If you keep most of your table sections relatively small and bolt them together you should be able to relocate them when needed. You may wish to use stainless for the removable hardware to keep it from rusting. You are basically building modules. There is lots of info out there on module construction.

I completely agree with your decision to build off the ground. If I ever do any major expansion it will be on benches.

#6

Just how “temporary” is temporary?

Indoors or outdoors?

It this set up in a fixed location or will it be set up and broken down depending on use?

I think i know what you have in mind, outdoors, raised wood frame with detachable legs, to be set up and used in a more or less permanent location but only for the time you are in Idaho. then it will be broken down loaded up and moved with you.

If that is the case then here’s how I would do it. Use 2x6 PTDF framing for 2’x4’ or 2’x6’ modules (2x4 is far easier to handle), exterior or marine grade plywood cap, roll roofing over the cap, provide small 1/4"-1/2" holes every 6" each way in the plywood cap to allow air to reach the underside of the roofing cap, it should help allow any moisture to dry out. Removable PTDF wood or foldable metal table legs to hold it all up. Given it would be outside I would use 2x6s, they are less prone to warp, if everything is screwed and bolted together tightly it should hold up quite well, I would use the roll roofing and just screw the track directly down onto to this ala what the Live Steamers do, this gives a weather tight cover yet keeps the panels light enough to be easily moved around if needed without pulling up the track, that’s not possible once you add a couple inches of gravel. Extend the roll roofing over the F & R sides but butt the side ends together so they can more easily bolted together and allow a solid rail connection. All you buildings can be set up or taken off as needed. Also be sure to bolt a few handles to each module, make handling MUCH easier. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

#7

Vic,

Your idea is along the lines of what I was thinking, with the exception of having a spline roadbed in which to attach the track. Keeping it light but relatively easy to move in the future is the key…

The idea would be to keep it outdoors 24/7 with the intention and knowledge that it would have to get moved at some point in time. Instead of spending money on something that would just get thrown out, my idea was to start building one section of my ‘dream layout’.

This might not even be possible as I was reading the contract for one of the places we are looking at. It says “no outdoor play equipment (swingsets, trampolines)”. Humm is a garden railroad considered ‘outdoor play equipment’? :wink:

As I mentioned in my first comment, I might not have anytime anyway to build something, but it’s getting the creative juices flowing. If I have room in a garage, I’ll have to build at least a workbench. That would need to be movable as well, and could work as a testing ground for an outdoor layout.

#8

Would trestle tables do the job ?

They are light , have folding legs and would not be too difficult to cart around .

Mike Brit

#9

Craig,

I would consider the “no outdoor play equipment (swingsets, trampolines)” to be a liability statement referencing the potential injury lawsuits.

As for the layout, I might consider using 1 x 6 PT lumber framing instead of the 2 x 4 or 6, much lighter. a 2’ x 8’ module would be quite doable, especially using spline road bed. Considering the temporary nature of the layout, I might build ‘modules’ intended to be incorporated into a final layout with simple post and plank connectors between (similar to Bart’s layout). For structures I would only put down platforms to place structures, not deck the whole module. Yes the 1 x 6 will not be as strong as 2 x 6, but half the weight and less expensive until you prove the concept.

Supports can be lengths of 3" PVC gray conduit (better UV protection) with a pipe cap on the bottom, cross bolted through the 1 by frame, cut to fit the current location.

I perceive it as, “If it is a temporary arrangement, build it with temporary techniques.”

My tuppence worth.

Bob C.

#10

Craig,

What a timely and intriguing question and subject.

  1. Strong bench work like Richard Smith’s Port Orford.

That is well documented as to how it is built. To make it strong enough to hold the amount of scenery, wood, earth and rocks, plus track and still be movable, means to just build it in small enough segments. I would think 2 foot by 4 foot box frame modules made out of 2 x 6’s could almost always be moved by a couple of guys. So building a larger area would be just bolting the modules together. I’d make the modules very standardized.

  1. Strong legs, means stability. I would think that the structure that Fred Mills’s uses with patio block 2 foot by 2 foot with a post sitting on that instead of going in to the ground would work. If each leg was made with 3 - 2 x 6’s attached together with deck screws or bolted together and 2 of the 2 x 6’s going up inside the module frame work and the 3rd leg made the width of the module frame work shorter to allow the frame work of the module to sit on it and the modules then bolted through the other 2 - 2 x 6’s of the leg would hold anything, even human weight to walk arouind on the deck of the modules. Modules that when bolted together create a surface 8 foot or 10 foot wide may need this.
#11

The VGRS Timesaver modules use 1 1/2" PVC

#12

I agree with Bob C …1x6 or even 1x4’s are more than sufficient. With cross bracing 16" o/c for 1/2 ply top or 24" o/c for 3/4 ply. I’m actually working on modules as I write this and when I say modules they include bridges as part of the system.

#13

Well we ended up not getting the place that had a yard. Guess we were down the list when we thought we were on the top. Oh the joys of renting. :wink:

Interesting discussion never the less.

I wonder how much total weight Richard has on each section of his layout? I know he tried to use hollow scenery as much as possible but the ballast and dirt must add up.

#14

If I’m not mistaken, Richard’s modules are almost totally porous and have a base of hardware cloth, with weed barrier and then the landscaping. Now this is not the area where buildings are or the area where the track splines are. The landscaping is filled with dirt, sand and rock. So there is no plywood base as Bob and Dave mentioned. Its totally porous and allows water to drain through. The splines are under the track and are much like the ladder track many of us have used. I can’t remember if the buildings sit on solid blocks or if a splined structure, but I do know that it all drains and is not solid plywood. If they were to be moved, they would have to be kept finished side up or it would all fall out. My thoughts are that Richards modules, if it could be called that, are like hollow planters.

#15

Ric,

Re-read my post above. I specifically stated no plywood deck. Only as needed to place any scenery structures. I deliberately made no mention of screen or dirt because the intent is OPEN frame work for a temporary setting.

@Craig - Too bad about not getting a place that would allow you a small GR. Good luck finding a better place.

Bob C.

#16

All of the suggestions seem (to me, at least) to be pointed at temporary/temporary, as in set up at the club show, indoors, (or outdoors on a good day) for a day or two, and then take down and store in a shed or barn, until needed again.

The way I read Craig’s design request was for a module design that could stand up to the rigors of outdoor life for a year or two, or more, yet be portable at least once, when he moved to his forever home.

I don’t think that any of the designs proposed would last through a serious rain storm, let alone an Idaho winter.

Please don’t get me wrong, I like all of the designs, for their intent, but for out doors, Craig needs a portable deck, and those things are heavy.

Two feet by four feet modules, made of 2 x 6 construction grade fir or pine, bolted together, with substantial 4" X 4" support, is going to be required. Whether you do the hog wire/weed cloth/spline method like Richard Smith, or use 5/4 or 6/4 PT Wood or Cedar like Bob or Fred to support the track is a personal choice.

Just my 2 cents, your mileage may vary…

#17

Craig Townsend said:

Well we ended up not getting the place that had a yard. Guess we were down the list when we thought we were on the top. Oh the joys of renting. :wink:

Interesting discussion never the less.

I wonder how much total weight Richard has on each section of his layout? I know he tried to use hollow scenery as much as possible but the ballast and dirt must add up.

Richard uses 2 x 4 PT wood in 4 ft by 8 ft modules as his basic unit of construction. He said that he wishes that he had used 2 x 6 PT wood, as the 2 x 4 tends to sag without extra support. Add to that the hog wire, the weed cloth (a pound or two) and the spline for the track and buildings (varies) and it can add up fast.

I think that these still work, but with the confusion over at MLS, who knows…

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/POC%20RR/POC_Main_Pt-1.pdf

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/POC%20RR/Evolution_of_POC_RR-02.pdf

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/stevec/POC%20RR/POC_Main_Pt-3.pdf

Add in the rocks and any dirt, and the weight can add up fast. If it were me, I would probably dispose of the dirt and rocks, remove and box up the track, and then move the modules so that the scenery didn’t get mucked up.

#18

Keep in mind there is a big difference between portable vs movable. Perhaps you could consider the HO and N scale concept of modules specifically designed for a specific scene connected by simple sections of mainline on simply built units that bolt to the scene modules. The individual scene oriented modules would be relatively easy to build and to incorporate into a future permanent RR. Just my $.01 worth

#19

Craig,

First question is do you want it portable or moveable?

Portable infers light weight and while it might be strong enough it wouldn’t hold up to being outdoors in winds all tear long I would think.

Moveable should be quite doable for 24/7 outdoor use however. My individual platforms are open underneath with landscape fabric over the joists and are 8 feet in length and vary 3 to 5 feet in width.

These sections are screwed together more or less permanently. The track is made with cedar splines attached at each joist to a cedar or PT block sitting on top of the joists.

If I were to make a moveable railroad following the design of the POC I would make the sections as hefty as on the permanent RR except perhaps about 6 feet in length for esier handling and I would bolt the individual sections together instead of screwing them together.

I would set the legs into concrete piers for a solid footing that would allow for easy removal. The roadbed splines could be fabricated to what ever length and configuration you find handy and set on top of the bench work sections allowing the track to span the joints. I would suggest screwing a few key blocks to some of the joists (the rest would be part of the roadbed) so the assembled roadbed could be placed over them for positioning during re-installation after a move. I suggest pins or dowels to connect the roadbed to the blocks that are screwed to the bench work as screws have a tendency to lock into place so firmly in the weather that they often havd to be cut.

Use additional material for hard spots to set the buildings and you’re ready to go.

For a move, remove the buildings, remove the track and roadbed, scoop out the dirt and ballast, unbolt the sections from each other, unbolt the legs and you’re ready for your move. One caveat is that you’ll probably need a small trailer to move the layout and it will be heavier than a portable layout but it should be quite durable and reuseable.

Good luck, I hope this helps you a bit.

Note: I forgot to mention don’t forget the hardware cloth (screening) beneath the landscape fabric for support. Very importanrt!

#20

Richard,

Thanks for the ideas and comments. I’ll keep them in mind for the future. Atlas we got a duplex that doesn’t have any yard, so no garden railroad for at least another year. It’s probably pretty good as I have quite a few half completed projects that need to be finished. However, I maybe picking your mind later when it comes to a future layout, hopefully sooner than later.