Large Scale Central

Teddy Roosevelt on immigration

General Discussion
#41

La Raza, “The Race,” is working to return the US Southwest to Mexican rule. Everything from the California/Oregon border, east to include Wyoming and Colorado, then southeast to include Texas.

Charlie Norwood of Georgia said:
"MEChA and the La Raza movement teach that Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington State make up an area known as "Aztlan" -- a fictional ancestral homeland of the Aztecs before Europeans arrived in North America. As such, it belongs to the followers of MEChA. These are all areas America should surrender to "La Raza" once enough immigrants, legal or illegal, enter to claim a majority, as in Los Angeles. The current borders of the United States will simply be extinguished.

This plan is what is referred to as the “Reconquista” or reconquest, of the Western U.S.

But it won’t end with territorial occupation and secession. The final plan for the La Raza movement includes the ethnic cleansing of Americans of European, African, and Asian descent out of “Aztlan.”

As Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge’s MEChA chapter has been quoted as saying: “The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlan. Communism would be closest [to it]. Once Aztlan is established, ethnic cleansing would commence: Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled – opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power.”


Mike, when you bring up things from our past, things that we have overcome, as a rebuttal to someone like Richard Smith who said that the Chinese are a real asset to our country, it seems to me that you do so from a deep seated dislike of the United States. I said, it seems, or appears. I do not know you, or your history, so I can only go by what you have written. You seem to take great joy in pointing out that our nation’s history is pockmarked with ugly incidents. No one denies that. You do seem to ignore, in your arguments, that we have overcome most of that ugliness. You have told us elsewhere, that you are critical of the US out of patriotism. At least that is how I interpret what you said on July 17, 2008. However, presenting only the critical side of the argument is intellectually dishonest, as there is always another side.

Richard Smith said:
Negativity does not intellectualism make. Further an informed opinion takes into account both sides of any issue. Will some results be negative? Sure but not all of them. Even when studying a despot like Hitler there will be some positives however small and however short lived.

To forever dwell on only the negatives without balancing with the good things distorts truth and gives a very wrong portrayal of historic events. This is dishonest as well.


You work in the history department of a major university. Most of your colleagues will, out of a misguided “fairness,” try to paint the United States as less than the great nation that we are. It is easy to fall into that morass, no matter how hard you fight it.

A while back, you asked me if I knew about “The Cowpens,” and to tell you the significance of the battle.

mike omalley said:
Only experts know much about specific battle in specific wars–what do you know about the Battle of Cowpens, which more directly secured our freedom than any battle of WWII? I’d be willing to bet nothing. That’s not because you’re ignorant, it’s because a lot has happened since 1781.

I do know about the battle, and I did answer your question about the significance, but got no comment from you. I guess I surprised you, eh? One other thing, the actual place name is “The Cow Pens,” because that is what that open field was used for, a cow pen.

The United States of America is a great nation. If it were not, we would not have people from all over the world trying to get here to raise their families, legally or illegally. Try to be a little more positive about us in future thinking.

#42

I’m delighted that you know about Cowpens–my point was never to suggest that you were ignorant, but rather to suggest that lots of crucial history is forgotten–that was the context of that thread. Good for you, for knowing about it.

Other than that, I think I’m done here. If it turns into an attack on me personally, or my profession, with the suggestion that I “dislike America,” it’s not really a discussion of the issues. Most people here post far more negative things about the US, all the time, than I ever do–taxes are too high, government is corrupt, we are too “weak”, we don’t take responsibility any more, we’re too litigious. I generally don’t respond to those comments by saying the person in question hates America, but you seem to feel obliged to paint me with sterereotypes about college professors in general. When was the last time you were in a college history class? What do you do/did you do for a living?

I’m done with this kind of debate. Whether i like or dislike America is both a ridiculous and an irrelevant diversion from the point we were discussing.

#43

Mike,

How about religious deference for certain Muslims? Do you know of any other religious group that has facilities paid for by public funds to help in religious practices like foot washers? Does any other religious group have the right to refuse cab service to the public because the customer is carrying a bottle of wine? Of course I expect you to go back a hundred years, or however far back it takes, to find an example of public funds for a religious accomodation. The removal of Christmas displays in public parks and facilities is another example of political demands and isn’t something most people want or have requested. It was brought about by a minority of people under threat of expensive lawsuits and forced upon the rest of us. Of course this has little to do with immigrants but my statement referred to “groups” not necessarily ethnic groups.

What you say about the Chinese is true. It was outright discrimination brought about by ignorance and fear as well as economic concerns. This type of thing though was rampant all over the world at the time and while it doesn’t make it right does help one to understand it. Remember the Irish too and many other ethnic groups went through the same thing in their own time.

A Chinese friend of mine who immigrated here after WWII told me that as a youth he was almost lynched one time in China for the simple act of entering another town. There was little travel at the time for the common folk and strangers were unwelcome in many of the smaller towns. He and a friend decided to explore a bit and walked to another town. They were apprehended by several of the locals who demanded to know why they were there as they had no business or reason to be there and threatened with death if they ever returned. Surely if someone came to their town without a logical reason then they were there for no good. Suspicion was a fact of life and still is in many areas of the world.

It’s interesting to note that you notice even the slightest flaw in the US but never seem to be able to notice or find any evidence of “spitting on returning troops” or the “return of southwestern states to Mexico”, etc., and when you do make passing notice you “see no harm” in their actions unlike the immediate criticsm of the slightest indication of patriotism or love of country which are positive things and attack no one. It seems to me that you see only what you want to see and turn a blind eye to everything else. How does that serve either the country or academic excellence?

I’ll not belabor the discussion further at this point since the posts from Steve and Ken pretty well say whatever additional I would want to say.

#44

I’m disappointed, Mike. I tried very hard not to turn it onto an ad hominum attack on you. I just used your own words.

I trained as a history teacher, but lost interest when it was I who got in trouble as a student teacher when I reported some students who were smoking marijuana on campus.

#45
mike omalley said:
Law and language are different things. A red light is indifferent to the speaker's language. You can have a common basis in law without sharing a language.

Can some one show me instances of demands that “we” be forced to change? I gave the example of Asian markets–Asian immigrants demand the foods they grew up with and the market responds. No one forces me to go to an Asian market, but my world has been changed. Can someone show me an example of the kind of political coercion that several people keep hinting about? I’ve never seen it. Richard, can you show me an example of the kinds of demands you’re talking about?


Mike,
I don’t know how things are where you live. But here in N.Carolina I am excluded from many jobs because I don’t speak “Mexican”. And I’m not being racist by using “Mexican”, as their version of Spanish is very different from what is spoken in Spain.
Looking for a Foreman’s job on a construction site and only speak English…Forget about it.
Supervisors job in nearly any meat or poultry plant…Forget about it.
What about the extra costs involved in printing every Govt document in 2 languages. Signage everywhere in 2 languages.
They should be required to learn the language in order to get anything more than a visitors visa.
Ralph

#46

Hey Ralph, you should have buckled down and learned Spanish a long time ago. :lol: :lol:

#47

Hussein wants us to speak French, now some say we need to learn Spanish and I notice many of you still spell taters with a “P”. What’s the point? I’ve gotten through 60 years without speaking anything but English (with a certain nautical flavor) and lived very well. I’ll keep it that way, thank you very much.

#48
mike omalley said:
I'm delighted that you know about Cowpens--my point was never to suggest that you were ignorant, but rather to suggest that lots of crucial history is forgotten--that was the context of that thread. Good for you, for knowing about it.

Other than that, I think I’m done here. If it turns into an attack on me personally, or my profession, with the suggestion that I “dislike America,” it’s not really a discussion of the issues. Most people here post far more negative things about the US, all the time, than I ever do–taxes are too high, government is corrupt, we are too “weak”, we don’t take responsibility any more, we’re too litigious. I generally don’t respond to those comments by saying the person in question hates America, but you seem to feel obliged to paint me with sterereotypes about college professors in general. When was the last time you were in a college history class? What do you do/did you do for a living?

I’m done with this kind of debate. Whether i like or dislike America is both a ridiculous and an irrelevant diversion from the point we were discussing.


Mike

I thoroughly enjoy reading your comments and agree with most of what you conclude.

I have noticed here that when you suggest America is not perfect, some people take it as meaning that you hate America. Some of your accusers are the same people who say America is great, the American people are soft and weak, the government is incompetent, the schools are a disaster, the health system stinks, the laws are oppressive, the country is overrun by hateful foreigners, but America is great and don’t you dare say otherwise.

These threads are a lot of fun. They contain a great deal of interesting psychological data.

#49
mike omalley said:
The present debate about immigration repeats many of the terms and issues about past debates. It's not an argument that the US is a bad place, unless you take the position that saying anything negative about the US is unacceptable.
There's a lot of resentment expressed in this thread. I can understand it, especially Ralph's comment about job discrimination. Other fears, especially those concerning violence, also resonate very strongly. I know what it's like to live in a rough neighbourhood where racial tensions are palpable, and I know the fear and anger people in that situation feel because I've felt it myself.

However, shooting the messenger is pointless. Mike’s right - this scenario has unfolded before, and some aspects of it aren’t pretty. Pointing this out is not “an argument that the US is a bad place.” Several other posts on this thread expressly or implicitly recognise that immigrants bring much of value to America. That’s exactly the gist of what Mike is saying.

It appears some of you have less of an argument with what the man has to say than with the way he says it. Gee, well, WOW, WHOOPEE!!!

Mike, please submit all future posts in German. That way, only HJ can read them and, as a Canadian, he is unlikely to be offended. In due course, HJ might even be persuaded to translate them for those of us who, like myself, find most of them interesting whether or not we agree with them.

#50

To immigrate to our country is a privilege, not a right. I see nothing discriminatory about requiring immigrants to learn our language, whether they are from Mexico, Germany or wherever.
I do not see an English language requirement as imposing on their freedom or liberty. Once they learn English…they are free to speak whatever language they choose, when they choose.
Ralph

#51

Kevin, you miss the point.

I feel free to criticize America, Lord knows we have enough problems. However, I also say loudly that this is the best of all places to live.

Some on here forget to mention the second point.

#52
Steve Featherkile said:
Kevin, you miss the point.

I feel free to criticize America, Lord knows we have enough problems. However, I also say loudly that this is the best of all places to live.

Some on here forget to mention the second point.


Wellllllllll some may have expanded their horizons and carefully evaluated this against that and that against this. :wink: :slight_smile: Or are we just to take your word for the true fairy tale? :smiley: :confused:

#53
Ralph Berg said:
To immigrate to our country is a privilege, not a right. I see nothing discriminatory about requiring immigrants to learn our language, whether they are from Mexico, Germany or wherever. I do not see an English language requirement as imposing on their freedom or liberty. Once they learn English..........they are free to speak whatever language they choose, when they choose. Ralph
Ralph,

I fully agree, I tried my very best to learn proper English. Which, if I may say so, is quite a bit more than some of the native born NorthAmericans managed.
No, I’m not talking about the Mexican or the Quebecois. :slight_smile: :wink: :slight_smile:

#54

Well, HJ, if it is “proper English,” that you’ve learned, how is it that you can say that you speak the native tongue of North America?

Or, are we to take your word? :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue: :lol:

#55
Steve Featherkile said:
Well, HJ, if it is "proper English," that you've learned, how is it that you can say that you speak the native tongue of North America?

Or, are we to take your word? :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue: :lol:


Niggly details, what I meant is “I tried my very best to learn how to use proper English.” But I have been known to mangle a few things, it all depends on the occasion, the circumstances and the people in attendance. :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

BTW at least the Canadian spelling is a lot closer to “proper English” than some of the other strains I’ve come across. :wink: :slight_smile:

#56
Kevin Morris said:
These threads are a lot of fun. They contain a great deal of interesting psychological data.
Chuckle!

For better or worse, I think my own posts would probably form an excellent basis for a PhD dissertation in clinical psychology. If I have fun writing them, and you blokes have fun reading reading them, and someone else can get an education out of them, it’s all good!

#57
Steve Featherkile said:
Well, HJ, if it is "proper English," that you've learned, how is it that you can say that you speak the native tongue of North America?
Didn't you know HJ also speaks Algonquin? Unfortunately, the German accent makes it sound more like Arapaho!
#58

I figured out what this is about. It’s this:

For conservatives, the US was great but is headed down the toilet today
for progressives, the US had some problems in the past, but is getting better today.

I regard myself more or less as a "progressive, and I think today’s US is pretty great and has never been better. I love it!
As far as I can tell, for conservatives it’s all bad today, but was great in the past

For conservatives, things were always better in the past. They are trying to “conserve” something they think has been lost, So if you regard yourself as a conservative, you can post all day long about how America today is going to the dogs thanks to “libruls,” immigrants, lawyers, enviro whackos, lack of taking responsibility, etc.–basically you can criticize the present day US all you want, you can even call for a revolution, because you’re always starting from a base of lost perfection.

For progressives, the past is full of mistakes that have been corrected over time, and things are trending better. If I point out that each large immigrant group has in turn been accused in the past of trying to “conquer” america, I’m saying relax, don’t get all agitated about the present immigration issues, or at least “consider it in the light of how we have worried about immigration in the past.” But if I suggest out that the past was less than perfect, conservatives think I “dislike America,” because in the conservative view the past was always better than the present.

So for the record: I love the United States of America, and I think it’s a great country. Despite the Bush Adminstration with its endorsement of torture and violation of civil liberties and general ineptitude, I think in general the US has never been better than it is now.

#59

I also think the US is great. I think we have many great nations in the world. Over the years, I think changes in the US and the World have gone both ways. Some changes have been for the better, some not. I think that at any stage in any Nation’s history…there is room for improvement. The same goes for individuals, myself included.
Ralph

#60

Sigh.

Mike, you still don’t get it.