Large Scale Central

Subway

Modeling Motive Power
#1

I could say these are rare, vintage, highly collectible…but I won’t.

They are very strange.

Here is what I know:

NWSL trucks under two cars, gutted. Typical of NWSL power trucks.
Sideframes are Blombergs.
Resin castings. One is spalling all the paint. One is warped (I think I can heat it and straighten it).

Power car (middle) was all apart, has later Aristo FA style power trucks.

Ends of the cars are resin castings, as you can see, “Barlow 96”, guessing they are about 20 years old made by someone named Barlow, eh?

I have new plugs and sockets with the cars to fix them.

The end view shows roof, sides, and floor as separate aluminum extrusions (floor just flat aluminum).
Kasiner did that in 0 scale.

#2

Information just pours in.

Dana Barlow in Florida built them.

TOC

#3

The are rare, vintage and collectible then. Rare because someone with your exposure to the hobby hasn’t seen them, so they must be rare. Vintage because they are from 96. And collectible, I mean, you did “collect” them.

Nice. Its always interesting to see what else is, and was, out there. So, now you will have to trench the yard to build a subway?

#4

I also won’t tell you that I “won” them. I also won’t tell you I stole them at thirty bucks. I will say they were free.

Interesting. The NWSL power trucks are gutted…which I expected to be the case or to be non-functional.

Many years ago, when Ted Sharpe ran Sunset Valley Track, he decided to build 1:32 EMD E-8’s. Used NWSL six wheel blocks. I saw completed units (three units were over 8 feet long) and he either couldn’t ship them or they came right back with the power blocks failed.

So now I have two units with dead NWSL blocks with resin cast Blomberg sideframes, and one unit with Aristo FA blocks that sits 1/4" overall higher than the other two.

I think I’ll pull the motor blocks and load them on flatcars as scrap. Yeah, that’s the ticket!

I really don’t know yet what to do with them. Putting a subway system into a 1930’s era narrow gauge steam road is a push.

They had to have been blanks. To cut the verticals in for the doors, and mill out the windows in a pattern not consistent with any passenger car, it’s the only viable answer.

TOC

#5

Gee, but if you could fix them up, then maybe you could sell them and get your money back. (http://largescalecentral.com/externals/tinymce/plugins/emoticons/img/smiley-wink.gif)

I didn’t know that the NWSL motor blocks were that bad. Is it really that difficult to engineer a decent motor block?

#6

I know we waited for the .6md that was supposed to be “the answer” Not a block, but a gearbox. I tried and tried…got the first one out of Raoul. In six months we went through three cases, four sets of gears, countless u-joints, and I gave up. Chassis is still in the attic, complete.

Mass is what killed them. Try ten cars down a 4% grade of any distance, followed by pulling back up. Just beat the guts out of them.

TOC

#7

Dang those are sweet! Being subway cars they were probably never envisioned on being on anything other than dead flat track.

#8

Cool ‘buy’ Dave!

#9

Vic yea, but if someone like NWSL is selling motor blocks, they should work in most applications.

#10

They redesigned the truck to use ball bearings. These are $90 each. The E-8/9 are $240 pair.

I took one of these apart, the gear area is full of ground up bits…no axle gear any longer, no motor, but wires are there.

PLASTIC axle bearings are s.h.o.t.

They sell sideframes, I imagine Blomberg, but it doesn’t say so.

Lots of verbiage on how much they have improved them…and why these older ones have failed…and the Sunset E8/9 went away.

TOC

#11

I’m confused… the old ones had plastic axle bearings, etc. Do the new one have ball bearings?

If so, anyone got any feedback on them?

Greg

#12

I’m with Dave. Two axle ones I got recently had plastic bearings and melted them. Now with those replaced you have to tap the motor block to get it to run.

#13

Tap the motor block. Oh, now that there is quality.

That brings me back to my question; Is it really that difficult to engineer a decent motor block?

#14

Greg…according to the NWSL website, the blocks were updated to ball bearings…but I’ll be gotoheck if I can figure out when. They talk about 1991, but these are 1996…old stock blocks?

Now the good news.

I took these trucks apart…one of the axles was to badly worn in the bearing area (all show wear) that it snapped when I removed the wheelset from the truck. I kid you naught.

I’ve got new axles coming, drilling out the plastic “bearing blocks” and inserting brass tube for bearing material.

I am looking at photos, trying to determine if I want to just leave the sideframes off.

Oh…the wheels are nickle plated brass. There are grooves (not bad) in the tread.

Plastic or nylon “bushings” in the hole, 3/16" axle just presses in by hand.

Now…the axles were all cut the be flush on the outside of the wheel/bushing. Nice and smooth. And just clear the cast resin sideframes.

The back-to-back, for those who have followed these discussions for all these years and can recite the spec…on all of these is 1.505".

Good thing nobody ran these through any switches.

TOC

#15

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#16

Any way to update them to the newer ball bearings?

Greg

#17

They list no parts. I am unwilling to spend the money right now for new dummy trucks.

Maybe if this fix doesn’t work.

I have no idea why I cannot post photos today…working on it.

I can load them up on a server I suppose.

I am doing brass tube full width for bearings, core out the wallowed out blocks, new 3/16" stainless axes, tubing (think wall) cut to length and new axles cut to length length shipping tomorrow.

Resetting gauge…these all measured 1.505" BTB, so axles and bearings cut to give me 1.575". and I’ll use nylon washers between wheel and housing…the wheels had been rubbing badly. I could drag 15 Bach freight cars for the effort to move one of the dummy cars.

If I can get the end dummies rolling smoothly, I’ll feel more inclined to attack the power car.

You know me, thirty bucks is too much to spend, right?

TOC

#18

@Dave M,

No, it is not difficult to engineer a motor block. The difficult part is a) determining what the specifications you want the block to stand up to, and b) manufacturing it at a price point that the hobby will buy in to.

As Dave G pointed out his line has steep 4% grades up and down. How much weight do you want that gearbox to withstand? Dave mentioned 10 cars, at say 3 lbs per car, that’s 30 pounds. That can be engineered for. So the next fella says well it works at 30, maybe I can do 45 lbs. I think you can see the outcome. Maybe there should be ratings on the package that clarifies the design criteria? Do some of the manufacturers even know them?

The price point is another consideration. How many units do you think you can sell? If you guess too high on quantity of units, you are stuck with a bunch of inventory that may or may not have paid for itself, and will take a long time to move. If you guess too low, the price point gets higher than the average hobbyist is going to spend and again you have an inventory issue.

As for subways running ‘flat’, I have to ask Where? I have ridden many a New York City subway and they go up and down all day long. 4%…probably not. There have been two article in NG&SLG on underground railways where the owner simply modeled 3 sides of the tunnel and the fourth side was the viewing area. Usually smaller scales though, and I don’t remember specifically if they were a subway.

The issue that seems to bother me the most about model manufacturers (and this applies to not just trains) is that the small amount it costs for a quality product that the customer will be glad to brag about to his fellow hobbyists, (free advertising) well outweigh the negative publicity of poor product construction (or why I personally only own Aristo rolling stock). In our hobby there are no manufacturers with out their issues, some are far better than others.

A disclaimer for Greg. I am not bashing Aristo, just making a note that a number of fellow club members have Arist Mikes with driver issues. I decided I did not wish to deal with that every time I wanted to run a train. My personal choice spoken only.

#19

Which is why wherever possible I have BBT drives or gearboxes in my engines. Full stop. I know what works, I make sure we are engineered for this scenario and more.

Okay. Here’s some descriptive photos. These ran on dead flat, point to point, and I have since discovered that they used an early Aristo reverser. Slam-bang, jackrabbit-stonewall, took gears out continuously.

Sideframes are cast resin, as are the car ends. You can see one of the axles worn to failure (on plastic bearings, no less). NO lube anywhere…bone dry and carbon black. One of the bushing blocks worn in a triangular shape.

TOC

#20

Makes you wonder how people think… run your car without oil?

Hmmm…