Large Scale Central

Steamer interest? One consideration

General Discussion
#1

For those who have considered building/operating a “G scale” live steam loco, I strongly encourage you to consult with those who already both have steam locos and operate them. My problem is where do I run this beautifully mfg. kit-assembled Accucraft 0-4-0 steamer? The problem for me is our garden RR has slight grades and this fun loco refuses to operate unless the track is FLAT. So I wait until the Big Train Show and the generous steamer operators give me time on their huge double track circle. However, I have been advised that the Accucraft Two-truck Shay is a gem at running on small grades as it reaches speed and maintains it independent of a, say, 2% grade.

No matter, the steam hobby is very satisfying – especially if you construct or assemble one yourself. Advice: Be sure to ask on our LSC steam site as to which loco choice you are considering and where you will be running it.

Obviously, I didn’t.

Wendell

#2

That’s why a lot of live steam guys build those (imo, kinda boring) elevated loop tracks with no scenery.

A temporary loop on the basement floor, porch or patio can work, too.

(A buddy from Cali has only ever run his on rollers… he lived in an apartment)

Just be aware that, if they jump the track, they can and will run away… trying to fish a hot loco out from under the bed is … interesting

#3

Good thread guys!

#4

Wendell thats why you instal R/C in a live steamer. It will allow you to use the steamer on a ground layout with grades. I run the Forney that way with no problems. The 0-4-0 should do just fine with R/C. Take a look at Jack Verducci’s Crystal Springs R. He operates a live steam ground layout and does all operations.

Another option is to build a portable layout. Steam in the Garden has a great article on building one. I built one for my garage. Although I dont use it a lot it is nice for those rainy weeks or to test out a steamer.

#5

I’ve been seriously contemplating getting one “to run around” the railroad when the mood strikes me. The idea of having a live steam loco is just neat. But, my ruling grade is 4.5%. I have a strech of about 50’ that has that grade. I planned on installing R/C, but is my grade too much?

Also, I’ve been eyeing either the new C-25 (although I have too many of that wheel arrangement) or a K-?? (K-28 butane fired would have been nice but they are out of production). Or should I look at a shay or something like that?

#6

Jake Smith said:

I’ve been seriously contemplating getting one “to run around” the railroad when the mood strikes me. The idea of having a live steam loco is just neat. But, my ruling grade is 4.5%. I have a strech of about 50’ that has that grade. I planned on installing R/C, but is my grade too much?

Also, I’ve been eyeing either the new C-25 (although I have too many of that wheel arrangement) or a K-?? (K-28 butane fired would have been nice but they are out of production). Or should I look at a shay or something like that?

Jake,

Live steam locos are at least as powerful (if not more) than a similar electric loco. Your grades are not a problem. But do remember it is using water - unlike an electric, it will need a refill occasionally, and more often if you pull heavy loads up grades.

A regular loco like the C-25 or K-xx will need r/c unless you intend to walk alongside and adjust the throttle continuously. I used to chase my C-16 around the RGSEast to the amusement of the sparkie crowd with their handheld controllers!

A shay or other geared loco won’t run away downhill so it is a good choice for an existing railroad with grades while you get the hang of the care and feeding. The Accucraft 0-4-0 Ruby and variants are difficult to control in their native state. The 0-4-4 and newer small locos are better, but still need watching.

Many people install a flat loop of track within an existing RR to support the live steamer runs. When you have installed r/c you can venture out on the mainline.

#7

Not wishing to argue greatly with the massively experienced Pete Thornton - but please cast your eye trumpets over THIS little episode last weekend at Huntingdon. The locomotive is a mightily powerful hauler that regularly hauls three of the passenger cars you see, plus eight freight trucks, around my LEVEL track, with the throttle just cracked open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k772DMXJ6BM&list=UU4qOKbRnqQgmuuwPKciL05Q&index=1

I’ll admit that it’s not struggling, but there is a marked dimunition in its velocitude as it reaches the far side of the track. We checked the level, and found it to a grade of less than 2%.

IMO, your 4% grades are about on the limit for an adhesion locomotive of any kind, although the powerful-for-size AccuCraft Shay, either two or three cylinder version, will handle it, but use, like ANY Shay, as lot of water doing it.

My $0.02.

tac

#8

Thought I would chime in. I own a Ruby and recently purchased a 2-cylinder shay. I still consider myself a beginner in the world of live steam. But my limited experience ties in almost exactly to the comments made.

My layout has many long stretches of 3% to 3.5% grades. The Ruby has R/C with the receiver and batteries in a light-weight trailing car (REALLY light-weight, i.e single trucks, plastic wheels, no metal parts). It can handle the grades but cannot pull any additional cars. Downhill is “Mister Toad’s Wild Ride” and the R/C is absolutely needed.

I’ve had the Shay for serveral weeks and have not installed R/C yet. It is TERRIFIC. A completely different experience from the Ruby. It will pull three 1:20.3 full size Accucraft freight cars up the grade. I can adjust the throttle once for downhill and it wont run away. R/C will add convenience but it is not a necessity on my layout. Also, you can really fine tune speeds for slow operation in yards, etc.

The Shay is a great second step for a newbie to live steam, especially if you have grades to deal with.

Joe

#9

tac Foley said:

Not wishing to argue greatly . . . . .

The locomotive is a mightily powerful hauler that regularly hauls three of the passenger cars you see, plus eight freight trucks, around my LEVEL track, with the throttle just cracked open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k772DMXJ6BM&list=UU4qOKbRnqQgmuuwPKciL05Q&index=1

I’ll admit that it’s not struggling, but there is a marked dimunition in its velocitude as it reaches the far side of the track. We checked the level, and found it to a grade of less than 2%.

IMO, your 4% grades are about on the limit for an adhesion locomotive of any kind, although the powerful-for-size AccuCraft Shay, either two or three cylinder version, will handle it, but use, like ANY Shay, as lot of water doing it.

My $0.02.

tac

Tac,

I’m not sure what you were arguing about. If you had the throttle just cracked, you are confirming my suggestion that live steamers are powerful!

Here’s a video I’m particularly fond of - my EBT #12 at Rog’ RGSEast. About halfway through is the sequence of starting 11 ‘loaded’ hoppers and a combine on the 3-4% grade. Note one of these locos won the pulling competition at Diamondhead last year. And yes - it does use a lot of water doing it.

Wendell,

This could be ontinued in the ‘Live Steam’ forum, where the other live steamers hang out.

#10

Thanks for the suggestions Pete. To be honest, I would most definately be planning an R/C install along with the purchase of the loco.

No offense to those that do it, but I refuse to run next to my loco to adjust speed, plus I cant do it with how my layout is setup.

#11

OK, I appreciate suggestions for remedy e.g. R/C and choices of locos.

My posting may have already reached any electric-focused outdoor railroaders with ANY inclination to enter live steam to first ask those who HAVE and RUN!

I didn’t.

IF I had, I would have planned for a meandering circle of track among the 450’ that was on the drawing board, specifically to accomodate the day when I would buy a loco kit. Secondly, I would make sure, if there was any grade, to buy something other than the Ruby 0-4-0.

Yes, the suggested remedy of radio control makes sense. Yet, I don’t want to spend the money to do so.

i think I’ll consider some track – that’s flat --in a configuration that can be added to what we have.

Meanwhile, moving the discussion is fine with me.

I still think asking BEFORE purchase is well worth the time. TAC’s experience is matched by many and there is willingness to help – before the choices are made.

Wendell

#12

There is a whole world of difference between the EBT mike and ANY ‘Ruby’.

'nuff said.

tac

#13

I have several Rubys all modified and run them on my ground level line. the main line is basically flatt (less than one percent grade for the most part) and a the Ruby’s do fine but they are more fun with radio control becaause I can control their speed and stop at stations.

I have added a 3% “mountain division” which they handle fine. the Ruby’s huff and chuff and just march on up even with some cars in tow. going down, the throttle must be all but closed or they zoom. with radio control though it is easy enough to keep em in check or even start and stop on the grade.

4.5% would seem to me to want a geared locomotive like the shay or climax. unless the grade is steady over a good length of track, Radio control would be useful to contol the speed even of a geared engine.

#14

Wendell one more thing. Steam in the Garden just had a nice article for beginers. Check it out. The current issue. You can get R/C hooked up for a reasonable price. I did mine for just under $100. If you want to cut cost down, use only one servo for the throttle. At least it will allow you to have control on those grades. Do a search for RC, in live steam forum. A lot of good info.

Another thing to consider is price. You really dont have to get an expensive engine to handle grades. If money is tight there are plenty of affordable engines out on the market. That was always my issue and still is. That really narrowed my choices down for me. Anything geared will be best on grades. Regner easy line has some nice stuff like the Lumberjack, Konrad, Willi etc… All under $1000. Bellflower makes the Cricket, and Accucrafts new Dora for under $400. I personally have more fun with these smaller geared engines. There is a lot to watch (moving parts).

Eric is a great example of what a ruby can do. Check out some of his videos.

#15

After loco-chasing in the wet on FOUR recent show-and-tell session, I’m about to swallow my pride and fit r/c to ALL my narrow gauge live steamers [that’s just five, BTW, for you bloated plutocrats out there having a quiet snigger’].

Here in yUK we are very lucky to have not only the likes of Tony Walsham’s great RCS products, but also two other mavenim - Peter Spoerer and Brian Jones - both of whom cater for the Gauge 1 mob as well. Their extremely small-sized set-ups easily fit in the comparatively NG locos of Fn3 and 16mm.

The great thing about the more simple AccuCraft locos is that more often than not, only one servo is actually needed - the one that operates the Johnson bar. Setting the throttle beforehand, and selecting the amount of opening or closing of the reversing block allows you to trim the speed to one that you care to handle, up or down-grade. Of course, a model with semi-scale valve gear like the ‘Countess’ or the Garratt, where there is a slight possibility of effecting an element of cut-off on the valve setting whilst in motion, would need the two servos, but they are getting cheaper and cheaper by the weeek, even here in rip-off yUK.

tac

#16

Jake Smith said:

I’ve been seriously contemplating getting one “to run around” the railroad when the mood strikes me. The idea of having a live steam loco is just neat. But, my ruling grade is 4.5%. I have a strech of about 50’ that has that grade. I planned on installing R/C, but is my grade too much?

Also, I’ve been eyeing either the new C-25 (although I have too many of that wheel arrangement) or a K-?? (K-28 butane fired would have been nice but they are out of production). Or should I look at a shay or something like that?

It might be a bit too much for a rod loco, but geared locos like the Shays should handle it fine. My 2 Cyl Shay with R/C handles my 5% + grade when warm and dry. When frozen solid it will do it, but works hard at it - Refer to my vid My Shay in Snow (for TAC) in live steam for an example of the latter.

#17

Thanks for the info guys. And Wendell I think you’ve asked a great question and I seezed the opportunity to ask some questions of my own.

TBH, I’m not sure when I will purchase a live steamer, but eventually I will. I have a lot of other projects that require funds first before I use them on a steamer.

#18

Jake I would also strongly recomend getting Steam in The Garden magazine. Especially the current issue, there is a section devoted to the newbie.

You can always start with something affordable like the Dora, to get a feel for live steam… My first was the Aristo 0-4-0. It was great engine (didnt fit my RR theme) I ended up selling it so I could get the Forney. Be careful because once you start there is no going back.

#19

I love steam… but for me its gotta remain in the 1:1 scale. More power to all you who enjoy the scale steaming, but I want my trains to just run. I’m not even happy with the idea of having to drop a new battery into the tender.

My steam:

Enroute from Altoona to Harrisburg, Nickel Plate 765 deadheads across the Pittsburgh Line. Having just knocked down the signal at CP-Jacks, the engineer opens the throttle and 765 storms upgrade out of Mt. Union towards the 188 signal. Mt. Union is the home of the PRR Interchange with the narrow-gauge East Broad Top.

After clearing the tight reverse curves coming off Cattaragus Creek Trestle, 2-8-0 No18 begins the charge upgrade on the excursion run.

#20

Great videos; bad links.

#1

[youtube]http://youtu.be/Fy0iIg-9MCA[/youtube]

2

[youtube]http://youtu.be/FtXgD1fvLEo[/youtube]

Love the whistle on A&A #18. Need to get back there some day. It’s probably been 45 years or more since I last rode the A&A.